This is the comparison between the header#1 (4-1) and Header #2 (4-2-1) that was posted under https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=291926 and thanks to satan_srv for hosting the pic. This is a stock H22A with a stock ECU, CAI and lightened flywheel.



As you can see the 4-2-1 did better than the 4-1 in the low and high end but didn't fair as well during VTEC xover. The VTEC xover on header#2 was noticeable on the track according to Corey.

My goals for the new header (#3, another 4-2-1) was to at least equal the low and high end gains of Header #2 and the power of header #1 (4-1) through the VTEC xover.

From the graphs below you'll see that most of these goals have been attained and in fact the new 4-2-1 header (#3) surpasses header #2 in the low and high end and is within 1 lb-ft of it from 4160-4920 rpm.

Run #13 Header #3 Today
Run #16 Header #2 Today



Run #13 Header #3 1/04/03
Run #16 Header #2 1/04/03
Run #10 Header #1 8/1/02





[Modified by SMSP, 8:25 AM 1/5/2003]

 

great numbers I can't wait until I can get one for my car.

Does this mean you're going to production, or is there still more details to work out?

 

Looks good Dave
Did you do any tuning of A/F via a V-AFC or FPR with either headers?

 

great work

 

There's something strange going on at the VTEC switch over point. Looks a *lot* like the blue trace is on an engine with a switchpoint 100rpm higher then the red, look at the point where the lines turn upward. I trust they are in fact on the same engine, but I don't see how a header alone could cause that shift.

Also, how accurate is a Dynojet for comparative runs? One hp and one ft-lb out of 150 or so is 0.6%. What't the typical scatter? In otherwords, the "gain" could very well be down in the noise.

 

well look at the first graph from the difference between #1 and #2... its like that also.

 

I can't see anything. Can u please post the pictures a big bigger.

Also when can i buy one and how much

 

I will fix up the pics when I am back home

 

I wnt one. i will be in Frdricksburg next month. how much and will they be ready by then?

 

Wheres the dyno of the STOCK manifold??

 

Can't wait for one.

 

defenetly (stock manifold) to the new header that`s what we compare to gains.....

maybe that motors just happy from the factory..

but yeah if it ever comes out i`ll buy one...

 

how much was the smsp header?

 

Yes, but with what should be a better version of #3. Merge collectors will be used for the production version and the tubes will come out of the head a little further before making the turn.

No, this is the stock ECU. Since we couldn't do any adjustments we only took A/F readings on Run13. At 3600 it dipped below 12:1 and then never got any leaner than 11.81:1 all the way to redline. So, I'm sure more power could be made if some fuel was taken out across the board.

Joel can you post the A/F graph for Run13? Thanks.

It is the same engine and yes the design of the headers can do that. These 3 headers have very different designs. Header #1 is a long tube 4-1, header #2 is a short primary long secondary sequentially paired 4-2-1 and header #3 is a short primary short secondary non sequentially paired 4-2-1. They are different animals and they all react differently, if they all reacted the same prototyping would be a breeze.

The jump you see in torque at VTEC xover on Run13 with header#3 was very evident to Corey (making the pull) and me (watching). When Corey gets on he can make his own comments but from watching the car go through VTEC on the dyno, the car with header #3 made a noticeable jump where header #2 didn't cause the car to jump as much.

As for the error of the dyno, I'm not sure. But making runs back to back on the same day and the same dyno and close to the same conditions is about as good as you will get for comparative measures on a chassis dyno. The procedure I use is to make runs until the power starts to drop off, due to heat sink, and then take the previous run. I use the same procedure every time with any header/part. The area from 4160-4920 could very well go either way, but the 12-13 lb-ft difference between header #3 and #2 through vtec xover can't be attributed to error/noise.

We didn't test header #1 today for 2 reasons, 1) it's sold and in AZ and 2) we knew how it compared to header #2 since it was tested back to back and on the same day.

We never made a run with it. I never saw the car with the stock manifold on it. The first time I got the car, Corey had a DC Sports 4-2-1 on it and I removed that and he sold it. From what I've been told a stock car/stock manifold and exhaust should yield in the neighborhood of 163-165 whp. If you are that interested in the comparo, we could do it if you'd like to pay for the dyno time. But, I think Corey is happy with the results.

I don't know since I don't think it was ever dyno'd before header #1 went on it. You'll have to change "factory" in your above statement to "junk yard" from what I've been told.

I don't know that either. I haven't even looked at material prices let alone labor. As I said before the production versions will utilize merge collectors (so I expect some gains from that) and if they are slip on collectors it may end up being a 4 piece header so removal of the cross member wouldn't be require, however I can't say that for sure right now. In addition, the tubing will be 304 stainless and I will possibly add an option to go with stainless steel manifold and collector flanges but that does add some $.


[Modified by SMSP, 7:02 PM 1/4/2003]

 

OK, for simplicity reasons...
Header #1 was the FIRST header Dave built, the 4-1..
Header #2 was the SECOND header, the 4-2-1
Header #3 was the THIRD and NEWEST header 4-2-1

Basically, header #3 is basically a combination of the #2 lowend and topend power, mixed w/ the #1 midrange, that was basically no existant on the #2 4-2-1... but more power over the entire powerband..

During the first dyno run w/ the #3 today, when I hit hi-cam, the car "raised up" on the dyno, much like it did w/ the #1 header.. Once the graph was shown, it was confermed.. You could feel the power while the car was strapped onto the dyno, impressive never the less...

For most of the year, I raced w/ the #2 header, it had the ground clearance and the relentless top end power I needed, but the xover at 5k was rather weak, and really hurt me at times when the GSR's and ITR's I would be racing w/ would come onto hi cam and GO.. I would come onto HI cam, and not go until 6k.

But now, the #3 shows that we now have a header w/ great ground clearance, very good xover power, and more power on the topend AND lowend over the #2 header (which was quite strong in those depts.) Also, should clear the subframe w/ none or very little mods to it.. I am very happy w/ the results of what Dave has worked w/, and my car continues to get better and better...

 

This is the comparison between the header#1 (4-1) and Header #2 (4-2-1) that was posted under https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=291926 and thanks to satan_srv for hosting the pic. This is a stock H22A with a stock ECU, CAI and lightened flywheel.



As you can see the 4-2-1 did better than the 4-1 in the low and high end but didn't fair as well during VTEC xover. The VTEC xover on header#2 was noticeable on the track according to Corey.

My goals for the new header (#3, another 4-2-1) was to at least equal the low and high end gains of Header #2 and the power of header #1 (4-1) through the VTEC xover.

From the graphs below you'll see that most of these goals have been attained and in fact the new 4-2-1 header (#3) surpasses header #2 in the low and high end and is within 1 lb-ft of it from 4160-4920 rpm.

Header #3 Today
Header #2 Today



HP Only


TQ Only


Header #3 A/F w/ HP



Joel's notes: Given the A/F ratio you could gain a fair bit of power with a simply a V-AFC!


[Modified by satan_srv, 1:16 PM 1/5/2003]

 

OK I WANT ONE!!!

When is the header going to go into production and for sale? How much is it going to be?

 

i`d also like to know....

 

Joel, Thanks.

Orders will be filled as they always have been. If interested in ordering please send me an email, then I put you on the build list and when I get read to start the header I'll ask for a deposit. I'm working on pricing.

BTW, Header #2 is for sale.


[Modified by SMSP, 6:24 AM 1/5/2003]

 

Will header #2 be for sale on Ebay again?

 

No, we'll try to sell it here to a H-T member.

 

for how much? and yea I was gonna say those graph overlays seemed wrong.

edit: another question would it be possible to make a skid plate for these? roads around here suck


[Modified by 93accordEX, 4:26 PM 1/5/2003]

 

If it gets sold to a Prelude driver, we'll probably have to swap the cross member with you.

 

So these results were on a a stock 5th gen, with just the header and a CAI?

 

any chance you want to make one of those badboys fit on my F motor accord. The ports are very similar, and you dont have to worry about tuning around vtec, because I dont have any.