Open Loop/Closed Loop
11-07-2004, 05:40 PM
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Open Loop/Closed Loop
After taking a long trip in my car this weekend, I've been curious about this. I have a wideband 02 sensor, and watch my a/f ratios constantly.
For about 2 hours each way out of my 3 hour trip, my car was sitting at 10.5-11.0. It was either in open loop or closed loop (whichever one doesn't read the 02 sensor, I can't remember).
What would cause a motor to go into whichever loop I'm talking about once the car is warm, and it is just sitting at a constant speed and RPM range for a certian period of time? I wasn't staying anywhere near boost, and was constantly running around 70 mph, which puts me just below 3k RPM.
It just seems to break in and out of it for no reason. I'm running a D16Y7 with the stock P2E (I think) ECM with an E-Manage piggybacked on it for my turbo.
For about 2 hours each way out of my 3 hour trip, my car was sitting at 10.5-11.0. It was either in open loop or closed loop (whichever one doesn't read the 02 sensor, I can't remember).
What would cause a motor to go into whichever loop I'm talking about once the car is warm, and it is just sitting at a constant speed and RPM range for a certian period of time? I wasn't staying anywhere near boost, and was constantly running around 70 mph, which puts me just below 3k RPM.
It just seems to break in and out of it for no reason. I'm running a D16Y7 with the stock P2E (I think) ECM with an E-Manage piggybacked on it for my turbo.
11-08-2004, 05:16 AM
#2
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Ricey McRicerton)
Closed loop = using the O2 feedback for fine tune of fuel control.
Are you also running the stock O2 sensor or feeding the narrowband output from the wideband into the ECU?
Are you also running the stock O2 sensor or feeding the narrowband output from the wideband into the ECU?
11-08-2004, 09:42 AM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (EE_Chris)
I'm feeding the narrowband output out of the wideband control unit. I was trying to avoid having another bung welded in my downpipe.
12-22-2004, 10:33 PM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (EE_Chris)
closed loop... ECU uses O2, and TPS to effecently tune the car.
open loop, under moderate throttle will disregaurd the O2, and use writen values in the ECU, to tune the car.
taken directly from Hondata's website...
Closed Loop
In closed loop operation the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name ‘closed loop’ from the closed feedback loop. The ECU won’t run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so ‘open loop’ is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load).
In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.
open loop, under moderate throttle will disregaurd the O2, and use writen values in the ECU, to tune the car.
taken directly from Hondata's website...
Closed Loop
In closed loop operation the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name ‘closed loop’ from the closed feedback loop. The ECU won’t run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so ‘open loop’ is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load).
In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.
12-22-2004, 10:36 PM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.</TD></TR></TABLE>
12-23-2004, 01:28 AM
#6
Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
This is VERY important information.
I always notice on my datalogs, at about half throttle, from idle - 4k will have flucuating afr's, just like the picture above. And once its above 4k, the air ratio smooths out, real flat.
Also, when it is flucuating, it is flucating around 14.7 (it jumps from 13.7ish-15.4osh). When it smoothens out, the air fuel ratio is what I tune it to. So i notice that even if i try to edit/tune my low end, part throttle, it still stays around 14.7 and flucuating.
So does that mean I'm running close pool until 4k, then after 4k, i run in open loop?
And if so, can i make it run in open loop forever? pro's can con's of doing so?
Sorry for typos, and for thread grand theft. TIA.
I always notice on my datalogs, at about half throttle, from idle - 4k will have flucuating afr's, just like the picture above. And once its above 4k, the air ratio smooths out, real flat.
Also, when it is flucuating, it is flucating around 14.7 (it jumps from 13.7ish-15.4osh). When it smoothens out, the air fuel ratio is what I tune it to. So i notice that even if i try to edit/tune my low end, part throttle, it still stays around 14.7 and flucuating.
So does that mean I'm running close pool until 4k, then after 4k, i run in open loop?
And if so, can i make it run in open loop forever? pro's can con's of doing so?
Sorry for typos, and for thread grand theft. TIA.
12-23-2004, 02:45 AM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Br1anPham)
anything over 80% throttle=open loop regardless of RPM. I think that by enabling open loop you are going to get the maximum fuel economy. you can also get very close results by fine tuning every portion of the fuel map and run open loop forever. for those who use rom editors, it is helpfull if you can dissable closed loop to tune for part throttle.
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12-23-2004, 08:17 AM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (evosol)
also if running a rom editer such as uberdata, you can disable closed loop all together and have it run the fuel maps you provide, i do this and i dont have an O2 sensor plugged into it, i use a wideband with a wideband output to the ecu, so i can datalog with it through the program w/o a CEL et cetera
12-23-2004, 09:25 AM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Br1anPham)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Br1anPham »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is VERY important information.
I always notice on my datalogs, at about half throttle, from idle - 4k will have flucuating afr's, just like the picture above. </TD></TR></TABLE>
the ECM's ROM is disigned to bounce like that... i asked a ASE tech at work why... why does it have to bounce like that...
one reason, was the car isnt' smart enough to hold it at 14.7, so it will go lean to a point and bounce back, and go rich, and vise versa.. its easier for the ECM to perform. the other flip side of that bouncing O2 signal, is the catalitic converter needs air to perform properly... air = lean fuel.
narrow band O2's are great, and cost effective for daily driving and ECM tunning, but suck *** at datalogg and tunning.
for the most part, wideband O2's could really careless about whats going on with the engine, it only reports what is see's. and doens't bounce.. this is true time... if your 20:1 A/F. it will tell you that.
I always notice on my datalogs, at about half throttle, from idle - 4k will have flucuating afr's, just like the picture above. </TD></TR></TABLE>
the ECM's ROM is disigned to bounce like that... i asked a ASE tech at work why... why does it have to bounce like that...
one reason, was the car isnt' smart enough to hold it at 14.7, so it will go lean to a point and bounce back, and go rich, and vise versa.. its easier for the ECM to perform. the other flip side of that bouncing O2 signal, is the catalitic converter needs air to perform properly... air = lean fuel.
narrow band O2's are great, and cost effective for daily driving and ECM tunning, but suck *** at datalogg and tunning.
for the most part, wideband O2's could really careless about whats going on with the engine, it only reports what is see's. and doens't bounce.. this is true time... if your 20:1 A/F. it will tell you that.
12-23-2004, 05:22 PM
#10
Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the ECM's ROM is disigned to bounce like that... i asked a ASE tech at work why... why does it have to bounce like that...
one reason, was the car isnt' smart enough to hold it at 14.7, so it will go lean to a point and bounce back, and go rich, and vise versa.. its easier for the ECM to perform. the other flip side of that bouncing O2 signal, is the catalitic converter needs air to perform properly... air = lean fuel.
narrow band O2's are great, and cost effective for daily driving and ECM tunning, but suck *** at datalogg and tunning.
for the most part, wideband O2's could really careless about whats going on with the engine, it only reports what is see's. and doens't bounce.. this is true time... if your 20:1 A/F. it will tell you that. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Once again, great information provided.
But in my current situation, 12.3:1 compression ratio, 91 octane, im detonating everywhere if i bounce back and forth near 14.7. Im going to have to run open loop all the time and fine tune it. Thanks everybody!
the ECM's ROM is disigned to bounce like that... i asked a ASE tech at work why... why does it have to bounce like that...
one reason, was the car isnt' smart enough to hold it at 14.7, so it will go lean to a point and bounce back, and go rich, and vise versa.. its easier for the ECM to perform. the other flip side of that bouncing O2 signal, is the catalitic converter needs air to perform properly... air = lean fuel.
narrow band O2's are great, and cost effective for daily driving and ECM tunning, but suck *** at datalogg and tunning.
for the most part, wideband O2's could really careless about whats going on with the engine, it only reports what is see's. and doens't bounce.. this is true time... if your 20:1 A/F. it will tell you that. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Once again, great information provided.But in my current situation, 12.3:1 compression ratio, 91 octane, im detonating everywhere if i bounce back and forth near 14.7. Im going to have to run open loop all the time and fine tune it. Thanks everybody!
12-23-2004, 07:35 PM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Br1anPham)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Br1anPham »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Once again, great information provided.
But in my current situation, 12.3:1 compression ratio</TD></TR></TABLE>
i try and guide people in the right direction whenever possible.
now.. with that much compression, you thought it really was gunna be easy? hahaha
Once again, great information provided.But in my current situation, 12.3:1 compression ratio</TD></TR></TABLE>
i try and guide people in the right direction whenever possible.
now.. with that much compression, you thought it really was gunna be easy? hahaha
12-24-2004, 01:33 AM
#12
Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i try and guide people in the right direction whenever possible.
now.. with that much compression, you thought it really was gunna be easy? hahaha</TD></TR></TABLE>
sure wasnt easy.
i try and guide people in the right direction whenever possible.
now.. with that much compression, you thought it really was gunna be easy? hahaha</TD></TR></TABLE>
sure wasnt easy.
12-24-2004, 06:24 AM
#13
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the ECM's ROM is disigned to bounce like that... i asked a ASE tech at work why... why does it have to bounce like that...
one reason, was the car isnt' smart enough to hold it at 14.7, so it will go lean to a point and bounce back, and go rich, and vise versa.. its easier for the ECM to perform. the other flip side of that bouncing O2 signal, is the catalitic converter needs air to perform properly... air = lean fuel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Some of that is wrong. The ECU rom does not make it bounce. The ECU have pre-programmed map(s). When you are on open loop (OP), you are directly running off the pre-programed map(s).
After your 02 sensor are warm and reading correctly, your car goes into closed loop (CL) (if all the terms are met for it). When your car is started for the first ever (or after you disconnect power to the ECU), your car starts to use the 02 sensor against the pre-programed map(s) to get 14.7. Most cars have a 4-wire (heated) or 1-wire (unheated). The only difference is that the heated warms up fast and will go in to CL faster. Both are narrowband sensor (0-1v), so they can only read rich or lean.
Back to talking about CL, this is how it works: We will says your car is in CL already, and your car is running rich. The ECU will trim the injector pulse width (via milliseconds) until the 02 sensor reads lean. Then it will add fuel to run rich, then continue that cycle. The ECU uses the 02 output to bounce, the ECU it is programed to bounce. Note: ECU is programmed to only trim a max amount of fuel with the 02 sensor input. That means, if you tune a car that runs crazy in partial throttle, the 02 sensor maybe be able to clean it up.
Lets talk about 14.7 a/f and why that is the goal a/f. Most people think that 14.7 will yield the best gas mileage. They are wrong. The striometric (sp?) ratio is the point where the motor makes overall less emissions then all other ratios. For gas, this is 14.7. You will get better gas mileage by running leaner then 14.7 in idle and low loads.
the ECM's ROM is disigned to bounce like that... i asked a ASE tech at work why... why does it have to bounce like that...
one reason, was the car isnt' smart enough to hold it at 14.7, so it will go lean to a point and bounce back, and go rich, and vise versa.. its easier for the ECM to perform. the other flip side of that bouncing O2 signal, is the catalitic converter needs air to perform properly... air = lean fuel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Some of that is wrong. The ECU rom does not make it bounce. The ECU have pre-programmed map(s). When you are on open loop (OP), you are directly running off the pre-programed map(s).
After your 02 sensor are warm and reading correctly, your car goes into closed loop (CL) (if all the terms are met for it). When your car is started for the first ever (or after you disconnect power to the ECU), your car starts to use the 02 sensor against the pre-programed map(s) to get 14.7. Most cars have a 4-wire (heated) or 1-wire (unheated). The only difference is that the heated warms up fast and will go in to CL faster. Both are narrowband sensor (0-1v), so they can only read rich or lean.
Back to talking about CL, this is how it works: We will says your car is in CL already, and your car is running rich. The ECU will trim the injector pulse width (via milliseconds) until the 02 sensor reads lean. Then it will add fuel to run rich, then continue that cycle. The ECU uses the 02 output to bounce, the ECU it is programed to bounce. Note: ECU is programmed to only trim a max amount of fuel with the 02 sensor input. That means, if you tune a car that runs crazy in partial throttle, the 02 sensor maybe be able to clean it up.
Lets talk about 14.7 a/f and why that is the goal a/f. Most people think that 14.7 will yield the best gas mileage. They are wrong. The striometric (sp?) ratio is the point where the motor makes overall less emissions then all other ratios. For gas, this is 14.7. You will get better gas mileage by running leaner then 14.7 in idle and low loads.
12-24-2004, 11:44 AM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (turbogixxer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Some of that is wrong. </TD></TR></TABLE>
no, we're in aggrement.
all of that, backed up what i was saying.
if you think about it, it makes sence. a car can't hold 14.7 A/F ratio with narrowband O2's, thats why they bounce. like you said, they run rich, once they hit 13.2 A/F (not sure of that number) then they go lean, till they hit 14.2 A/F (again not sure) and go back and forth. this is how the keep clean. narrowband O2's, aren't smart enought to communicate with the ECM, and keep it at 14.7..
but 14.7 isn't always best. it is for performance, but not for emmisoins. and why? well, they catalitic converter needs both... actually, i think more lean, to show good smog numbers.. but i know for a fact, once it goes rich, that means it has to be backed up with lean exhaust to heat up the cat, and help it work properly to burn all the hydrocarbons in the exhaust.
no, we're in aggrement.
all of that, backed up what i was saying.
if you think about it, it makes sence. a car can't hold 14.7 A/F ratio with narrowband O2's, thats why they bounce. like you said, they run rich, once they hit 13.2 A/F (not sure of that number) then they go lean, till they hit 14.2 A/F (again not sure) and go back and forth. this is how the keep clean. narrowband O2's, aren't smart enought to communicate with the ECM, and keep it at 14.7..
but 14.7 isn't always best. it is for performance, but not for emmisoins. and why? well, they catalitic converter needs both... actually, i think more lean, to show good smog numbers.. but i know for a fact, once it goes rich, that means it has to be backed up with lean exhaust to heat up the cat, and help it work properly to burn all the hydrocarbons in the exhaust.
12-24-2004, 12:11 PM
#16
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> car can't hold 14.7 A/F ratio with narrowband O2's, thats why they bounce. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The 02 sensor makes it bounce. If it was a wideband, it can target the a/f with little to no bouncing.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but 14.7 isn't always best. it is for performance, but not for emmisoins. and why? well, they catalitic converter needs both... actually, i think more lean, to show good smog numbers.. but i know for a fact, once it goes rich, that means it has to be backed up with lean exhaust to heat up the cat, and help it work properly to burn all the hydrocarbons in the exhaust.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It very common knowledge that 14.7 is for emissions. Car makers care more about emissions then performance. With saying that, why would they run 14.7 (on gas) for performance, when you say, it is not best for emissions?
Proof:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well im sure you've all heard of Stoichiometric conditions. This is described as 14.7:1 AFR. This is an important number for manufactures because this AFR allows the catalytic converter to maximize its effect of reducing harmful exhaust gas emissions.
This isnt the best in terms of Fuel efficiency. you can lean the motor out as much as possible when you are at lower load levels (cruising). I typically run 15.0:1 or so. </TD></TR></TABLE>
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1060267
Go to sae.net and download some PDF files on emissions.
The 02 sensor makes it bounce. If it was a wideband, it can target the a/f with little to no bouncing.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but 14.7 isn't always best. it is for performance, but not for emmisoins. and why? well, they catalitic converter needs both... actually, i think more lean, to show good smog numbers.. but i know for a fact, once it goes rich, that means it has to be backed up with lean exhaust to heat up the cat, and help it work properly to burn all the hydrocarbons in the exhaust.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It very common knowledge that 14.7 is for emissions. Car makers care more about emissions then performance. With saying that, why would they run 14.7 (on gas) for performance, when you say, it is not best for emissions?
Proof:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well im sure you've all heard of Stoichiometric conditions. This is described as 14.7:1 AFR. This is an important number for manufactures because this AFR allows the catalytic converter to maximize its effect of reducing harmful exhaust gas emissions.
This isnt the best in terms of Fuel efficiency. you can lean the motor out as much as possible when you are at lower load levels (cruising). I typically run 15.0:1 or so. </TD></TR></TABLE>
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1060267
Go to sae.net and download some PDF files on emissions.
12-24-2004, 12:14 PM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (turbogixxer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Some of that is wrong. The ECU rom does not ma...</TD></TR></TABLE>
haha, some of that is wrong? You just said the exact same thing he did.
Some of that is wrong. The ECU rom does not ma...</TD></TR></TABLE>
haha, some of that is wrong? You just said the exact same thing he did.
12-24-2004, 12:16 PM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> it is for performance, but not for emmisoins. and why? well, they catalitic converter needs both... actually, i think more lean, to show good smog numbers.. </TD></TR></TABLE>
now.. mase and i are in agreements.. lol
as i said.. lean = more air than fuel, and heat to let the cat perform correctly... like i said.. in the neighboor hood of 15.0 A/F.
now.. mase and i are in agreements.. lol
as i said.. lean = more air than fuel, and heat to let the cat perform correctly... like i said.. in the neighboor hood of 15.0 A/F.
12-24-2004, 12:23 PM
#19
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (Built B16A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Built B16A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
now.. mase and i are in agreements.. lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now, you are in ageements with Ben Strader.
http://www.innovatemotorsports...59036
LM-101: Tuning Basics, Theory, and Applications
It is about ~1:30 in.
I have SAE papers too that explain it. Also writing by gordon p. blair too. I can go all night
now.. mase and i are in agreements.. lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now, you are in ageements with Ben Strader.
http://www.innovatemotorsports...59036
LM-101: Tuning Basics, Theory, and Applications
It is about ~1:30 in.
I have SAE papers too that explain it. Also writing by gordon p. blair too. I can go all night
12-24-2004, 12:31 PM
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (turbogixxer)
either way...
my statement, backed up by your papers, its black and white... can we drop this now? i thnk we're pretty much going the same direction with this topic.
my statement, backed up by your papers, its black and white... can we drop this now? i thnk we're pretty much going the same direction with this topic.
12-24-2004, 12:31 PM
#21
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Re: Open Loop/Closed Loop (sporkcrx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sporkcrx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
haha, some of that is wrong? You just said the exact same thing he did.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The 02 sensor makes it bounce. If it was a wideband, it can target the a/f with little to no bouncing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Edit, it is drop. nothing more needs to be said.
haha, some of that is wrong? You just said the exact same thing he did.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The 02 sensor makes it bounce. If it was a wideband, it can target the a/f with little to no bouncing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Edit, it is drop. nothing more needs to be said.
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