dbman96

Hi all - been a while since I've posted on here (been hanging out in the FI and hybrid forums lately), but I thought this would be a good place to gauge interest. I am currently working as a mechanical engineer for a company in the business of developing electric powered superchargers.

(waits for laughter to subside)

OK, I know Ebay is saturated with "electric superchargers" and it's all a big joke to everyone, but the reality is that this IS possible, if you have realistic expectations and good engineering. We have run these things for years on large turbodiesel engines for the purpose of reducing/eliminating turbo lag and have excellent results; the units have been used in several countries as pollution control devices in urban areas, and fitted on commercial fleets from garbage trucks to urban bus programs (frequent start/stop = high pollution while waiting for the turbo toget up on boost). We've also tested on small displacement engines and based on our old-technology compressors (much lower flow capacity than the units I'm working on now) we could make a 1.6L engine meet or exceed the performance of an equivalent 1.8L engine, with no sacrifices and better fuel economy. Additionally, I can tell you that just about EVERY turbocharger manufacturer is working on similar projects to create a workable electric assisted turbocharger. This is a very hot topic in automotive engineering right now, not just on Ebay!

I've also heard all the arguments - it takes too much power, the load will "bog" down the alternator, etc. Reality: the battery can provide enough power to operate a LARGE electric motor for 10-15 seconds, no problem. If high loads "bog" your alternator enough that you can feel it, you need to get your alternator checked. Once the current draw exceeds your alternator capacity, the battery takes over, and when the motor is switched off, the alternator recharges the battery at its leisure. An electric supercharger consumes about 50-75% as much power as your starter motor, and the starter motor does its job without the assistance of the alternator.

Like I said, you need to have realistic expectations. You will NOT increase peak HP or torque with an electric supercharger. Peak HP comes at or near redline, when your engine is consuming so much air that it would take a HUGE amount of power to compress it significantly. However, if the supercharger is optimized to create boost at low-mid RPM range, we believe it is possible to increase torque and HP in the 1000-4500 RPM range anywhere from 20-35% depending on the application. From 4500 RPM on up, the boost would taper off gradually to a 0% increase near redline. This is all projected for an engine from 1.6 to 2.0 liters in displacement. I'm bench testing these compressors right now, so I know for a fact the flow and boost is attainable, and I'm working on an integra install right now so we should be dyno testing in the next couple of weeks.

The question is, would people be interested? My logic goes something like this: Most people in this hobby don't think twice about buying the typical I/H/E for anywhere from $500-1200 all together, and realistically gain very little torque, and perhaps 5-10 hp if they're lucky, by shifting the torque peak up a few hundred RPM. The next step is something like the JRSC or a turbo, where you'll usually spend $3000+ when all is said and done. What I'm proposing is a solution that can safely provide about 4.5 psi boost at low engine speeds, providing a torque curve very much like the JRSC up around 4500 RPM, and then blending off into the natural HP peak of the engine. For engines that are notoriously "peaky" like the Si, GSR/Type R, or the Toyota 2ZZ-GE (Celica/Matrix) I tend to think this would be very useful "low risk" solution for a daily-driven car, and installation should be a 1-2 hour job at most. We also would expect to seek CARB exemption (which we have previously attained for these superchargers in Diesel applications).

Now I'm just looking for feedback from enthusiasts like myself. My viewpoint is a little skewed since I've been in love with high-revving engines for years, and my current daily driver is a '96 GSR with a B20/GSR turbo engine so I'm pretty well adjusted to making my power at high revs (although the B20 block does make the engine feel a lot happier down in the 3000 RPM range). Incidentally, I will also be pursuing applications of this same supercharger as a means to overcome any lag present in turbocharged setups.

I would just like to hear the viewpoint of others - is this a product you think you / your mom / other enthusiasts / the general public / kids with green tinted windows and huge spoilers / etc. would actually find useful? Please let me know - discuss in this thread or email me: dmanning@boostingsystems.com

Thanks for taking the time to read my mini-novel here.

oc_civic

i don't like it.. it sounds like a bad idea.. it is an interesting thought to increase paower at low rpms where most of our cars lack it.. but if it stops being effective before 5k where a lot of our motors really shine.. whats the point??? i mean why go with somethign so restrictive.. i read your points.. i understand them, but once you instal something like this you his a wall...where do you go after this.. long term... i think if anything this would be a great OEM OPTION... for those people that have no SERIOUS interest in car modification.. it would reeally help say a stock civic si.. that is not so great low band, it might make teh WHOLE driving expieriance feel more exciting/aggresive... but i think the aftermarket community will have little interest in this.. once again. not trying to be an *******.. just my opinion and all

dbman96

I appreciate your feedback - I have the same reservations, and that's one reason I want to get some idea how others feel about it. I'm a no-compromises performance guy myself; my car's feeling the pain of a DIY turbo job and I'm currently working on tuning the kinks out of my AEM EMS, so I see where you're coming from. If you don't have bragging rights of max power, what's the point?

I guess what I'm thinking is that this should make the overall driving experience better, and I see no reason that there should be a "brick wall" anywhere. So you get 30% more torque at low end... why not throw on some insanely aggressive cams to gain more power at the top? With something like this, you're not going to kill your low-end performance. In effect, I think this could work as a great "starting" mod that you can continue to build on to your heart's content. Add a turbo, or a Vortech SC... you have power down low AND up high. The Vortech SC actually looks really silly to me on a Honda engine, until I modeled what the performance would look like if you ran one of these electric SCs inline with it.

Please keep the ideas coming, and thanks for having an open mind.

The_Head

I think its a good idea. If it adds area to the torque curve its going to be better on the street and for daily driving.

BigZ88

Ok, Also being an ME and studying fluid flows and such in my classes, I tend to agree that this is possible with the speeds and such that an electric fan can produce. I am not sure however that this will not obstruct flow at high RPM where you say that the boost will taper off. At these RPMs pretty much anything that is inside the intake will obstruct flow. Also, I am not sure that your thoughts about power robbing from the alternator and battery are correct. After driving for a while most people who use any kind of stereo system running decent power start off the drive fine and no light dimming effects, however after a while this becomes a problem. Granted im sure your fan uses less power than that, but i have a feeling that after a bit of driving time this might happen unless you can keep up the alternator speed (hence reving higher) which would tend to reduce the effects of your "supercharger". would it not? In all actuality the ultimate setup would to be something like they run on turbo rally cars (the tiburon that won the SCCA a year or 2 ago? is a perfect example) These cars use a switch activiated motor that helps to spin the turbo at lower speeds and revs to keep the turbo spooled up. You would probably lose more air through the BOV, however when throttle is opened back up you would have the turbo spinning at a more beneficial speed. Now, im not quite sure the systems they use to achieve this, or if it is feasable for normal people to use this, but still.
These are just my thoughts, and I may be wrong as I have never seen a flow bench test of your products. Just making some points that i would think to be correct from other studies and problems i have worked on.

BigZ88

I think what he means is that at high RPM that fan would have to spin fast enough to allow the full amount of air through or else it would create his "brick wall".... and if u throw in the cams for top end, then i think this effect would be even worse as the engine would need even more air.
not trying to completely write you off here, but we have thought about this kind of thing for a while.

oc_civic

there you go.. you got it...

dbman96

This is true, but when the unit is not in operation, it will be fully bypassed so the intake will still have a straight-line path to the air filter. The bypass will only close when the compressor is capable of producing more air than is available through the traditional intake.

I'm relatively sure no electric motor systems have been used on rally cars- if you have any information to that effect I would be interested in reading about it since our company has several international patents on the idea. Rally cars frequently use "anti-lag" devices which retard ignition timing so far that fuel is still burning in the exhaust manifold when the clutch is depressed and this external combustion keeps the turbo spooled at the expense of manifold and turbo durability. Nobody really likes this idea much on a street car, although I'm toying with the idea of running some antilag on my car (AEM EMS system is capable of this) just for kicks / to scare small children and animals.

I think your points regarding car stereos and their effects on charging systems reflect more on the durability of peoples' batteries - if you're running a high power stereo, chances are that more than a few times you're going to run it with the engine off, probably long enough to pull the battery down below its operating voltage, which is TERRIBLE for battery lifespan... I'm hoping we will avoid this issue, but it's entirely possible that this could prove to be a problem. Realistically though, with prorated warrantees on most batteries, it wouldn't prove to be too expensive to replace your battery every 2 years instead of every 4, or whatever the case may be. Most of us spend a lot more on less significant stuff for performance' sake.

dbman96

(See my notes on bypassing the system above...) The unit is not mounted "in" the intake, but is essentially "parallel" to the air filter - think about it like you have two air filters connected with a Y-adapter which can seal one side off when the other side is flowing more air. There should be no losses when the unit is out of its flow range or when operating at low throttle when the unit is switched off.

Please keep the ideas/comments coming. We should have dyno tests in the next week or two and I will be sure to post them for public viewing.

Mojo-Jojo

It's an interesting idea.

I'd probably go for it, as I love the way my car feels when I floor it at anything above 4500 RPM. I don't really see the need for more power up that way.

But, below that is...blah.

It seems that it would be a VERY good thing for city driving, and autocrossing.

Thing is, it'd have to be relatively cheap. You can get a mild turbo kit for around $1500, and that helps over pretty much the whole rev range.

So, for something that's only going to help the bottom half of the power band, it'd have to be a relatively inexpensive thing.

BigZ88

Ok, well first, i didnt see that you had said anything about any kind of bypass of the fan assembly, so i guess with this its possible, however it would be one crazy shaped intake and you would have to spend HOURS on a flow bench to get the bypass to work correctly to allow as much air through as a traditional intake would at these RPMs. And since when racing a honda or any smaller engine liek this you tend to stay in the upper RPM ranges anyways since thats when you make the power you demand, so basically it would only be useful for the first few feet assuming everything works how u say it does.

Well the only thing i know about the electric motors on rally cars is from what the driver told me at a car show. I am sure he could be wrong as he just drives and has nothing to do with building the engine.

Also, the thing about stereos and such doesnt only happen from when you run it with the engine off. These things put a relativly large load on the alternator when it is running, as you said when this happens it pulls off the battery. This is what causes alternators to begin to fail. They can only do so much and when pushed beyond that limit they go to crap. So it wouldnt necessairly be replacing your battery every 2 years but perhaps your alternator as well. Which i am sure most people wouldnt want to do.

please dont get me wrong, it is a good idea and people have thought about it, but it isnt exactly the best way to do things unless u get into using magnetic motors and superconductors with absolutely no loss to friction.

dbman96

OK, the bypass is done, it's been tested for about 4 years, and it's a virtually-0-loss situation... you may not be visualizing this correctly, but think of a straight line intake with a leg sticking out of it to allow boost into the intake tract. When it's bypassed, it will aerodynamically look just like any 3" diameter intake.

And realistically you're correct, this is not going to be something that shows up on full drag cars (unless it's used in conjunction with a turbo) or out on Laguna Seca. It's intended for street driven cars that would like to have available torque somewhere below 5000 RPM, which is one of the biggest complaints people have about small-displacement engines.

BigZ88

Well, it just doesnt seem like something a performance minded person would want on their car. I could see it if you were strictly using it on the road for short city driving or somethgn. Just not performance wise. SO who knows, it might work and i give u a if it works and u make money. Thats what our profession is about and i hope to come up with something soon enough.

BigZ88

I mean id be willing to give it a try, im going to swap soon to a b18, so if you need someone to test it out, and want some feedback, hit me up