dbman96

Hi all - been a while since I've posted on here, but I thought this would be a good place to gauge interest. I am currently working as a mechanical engineer for a company in the business of developing electric powered superchargers.

(waits for laughter to subside)

OK, I know Ebay is saturated with "electric superchargers" and it's all a big joke to everyone, but the reality is that this IS possible, if you have realistic expectations and good engineering. We have run these things for years on large turbodiesel engines for the purpose of reducing/eliminating turbo lag and have excellent results; the units have been used in several countries as pollution control devices in urban areas, and fitted on commercial fleets from garbage trucks to urban bus programs (frequent start/stop = high pollution while waiting for the turbo toget up on boost). We've also tested on small displacement engines and based on our old-technology compressors (much lower flow capacity than the units I'm working on now) we could make a 1.6L engine meet or exceed the performance of an equivalent 1.8L engine, with no sacrifices and better fuel economy. Additionally, I can tell you that just about EVERY turbocharger manufacturer is working on similar projects to create a workable electric assisted turbocharger. This is a very hot topic in automotive engineering right now, not just on Ebay!

I've also heard all the arguments - it takes too much power, the load will "bog" down the alternator, etc. Reality: the battery can provide enough power to operate a LARGE electric motor for 10-15 seconds, no problem. If high loads "bog" your alternator enough that you can feel it, you need to get your alternator checked. Once the current draw exceeds your alternator capacity, the battery takes over, and when the motor is switched off, the alternator recharges the battery at its leisure. An electric supercharger consumes about 50-75% as much power as your starter motor, and the starter motor does its job without the assistance of the alternator.

Like I said, you need to have realistic expectations. You will NOT increase peak HP or torque with an electric supercharger. Peak HP comes at or near redline, when your engine is consuming so much air that it would take a HUGE amount of power to compress it significantly. However, if the supercharger is optimized to create boost at low-mid RPM range, we believe it is possible to increase torque and HP in the 1000-4500 RPM range anywhere from 20-35% depending on the application. From 4500 RPM on up, the boost would taper off gradually to a 0% increase near redline. This is all projected for an engine from 1.6 to 2.0 liters in displacement. I'm bench testing these compressors right now, so I know for a fact the flow and boost is attainable, and I'm working on an integra install right now so we should be dyno testing in the next couple of weeks.

The question is, would people be interested? My logic goes something like this: Most people in this hobby don't think twice about buying the typical I/H/E for anywhere from $500-1200 all together, and realistically gain very little torque, and perhaps 5-10 hp if they're lucky, by shifting the torque peak up a few hundred RPM. The next step is something like the JRSC or a turbo, where you'll usually spend $3000+ when all is said and done. What I'm proposing is a solution that can safely provide about 4.5 psi boost at low engine speeds, providing a torque curve very much like the JRSC up around 4500 RPM, and then blending off into the natural HP peak of the engine. For engines that are notoriously "peaky" like the Si, GSR/Type R, or the Toyota 2ZZ-GE (Celica/Matrix) I tend to think this would be very useful "low risk" solution for a daily-driven car, and installation should be a 1-2 hour job at most. We also would expect to seek CARB exemption (which we have previously attained for these superchargers in Diesel applications).

Now I'm just looking for feedback from enthusiasts like myself. My viewpoint is a little skewed since I've been in love with high-revving engines for years, and my current daily driver is a '96 GSR with a B20/GSR turbo engine so I'm pretty well adjusted to making my power at high revs (although the B20 block does make the engine feel a lot happier down in the 3000 RPM range). Incidentally, I will also be pursuing applications of this same supercharger as a means to overcome any lag present in turbocharged setups.

I would just like to hear the viewpoint of others - is this a product you think you / your mom / other enthusiasts / the general public / kids with green tinted windows and huge spoilers / etc. would actually find useful? Please let me know - discuss in this thread or email me: dmanning@boostingsystems.com

Thanks for taking the time to read my mini-novel here.

98civicEX

the entire electrical supercharger industry has pretty much already been bashed. they've gotten to many complaints and the people actually purchasing these cheap POS will eventually start running the industry even more by word of mouth. i don't think it's going to be easy to sell these due to the reputation it has already received. even though it's a QUALITY item that you'll be selling. it'll be too hard to convince those who already have bad expreiences w/ them.

skilzz

Despite the bad name and flack from similar previous products this country and world is big enough to where new customers will be enough to sell a substantial amount of these products - THATS IF ITS 100% A VERY HOT MUST HAVE PRODUCT. As well as those who heard the flack and are educated of the new revised product and sees proof that it works will also buy themselves. This lays all in the marketing.

As for the actual electric superchargers, the thesis/theory layed out by dbman is very convincing and the product could very well be a hit someday and it will be a hit in mostly small engines. The only thing i see wrong with it is for real speed and torque junkies like myself the supercharger is going to drop power high end...this is not cool because when a turbo spools up the torque goes off the charts until your pretty much ready to shift in the vtec hondas so if power is dropped at high end then the vehicle is pretty much going to fall flat on its face (or at least its gonna feel like it) since its going back to its own all motor power. I would rather have my car pull all the way through than just the low to mid end part of the powerband, in a race thats everything. If the E/SC could provide that boost all the way then eventually we would all give up on our turbo's and install E/SCs tommorow because the power would be insane, the only thing wrong with this is that you would need a serious electric motor to turn that compressor and in order to have this your going to need an upgraded HD charging system install a physically heavier motor maybe even an additional battery hence defeating the performance purpose since you have to tug all this weight and now have much more things to fix when things go wrong.

Basically for stock 1.1L Mitsubishi Buzz's, Diahatsu Coure's and Mini coopers the electric supercharger your developing is going to be a big hit but for most other people its going to take impressive dynosheets, an excellent hassle free ownership and a few other thing to sell it.
I almost forgot to mention that is also going to have to be reasonably cheap too

PS. Good topic


[Modified by maddskilzz, 7:41 PM 9/9/2002]

dbman96

You're absolutely right - this is a compromise situation. Personally, the only way I would use one of these is in series with a large turbocharger to pick up the slack until it spools... one of the beautiful things about this idea is that if you run two compressors in series, the boost doesn't just "add" the two psi numbers together - it "multiplies" the pressure ratio. I ran some projections on this and you could essentially get 5.5-6 psi boost from idle up to wherever your turbo (or Vortech SC) outruns the E/SC and then rocket up to max power. But having "JRSC-like" response at the bottom end might be enticing to even the most die-hard turbo fans. It would certainly be less expensive than upgrading to a GT-series ball bearing turbo and it would buy you a lot more than spooling 500-1000 RPM earlier. I'll be testing this idea on my car within probably a month or so, so you'll be hearing about that too.

This is essentially the response I expected from the FI forum, since most of us in here are pretty "hard core" by sport compact standards. But since we've all been through the whole process, I was hoping we might get some thoughts on if people would be interested in something that could give them a tangible boost at low end (might be particularly useful for automatic tranny owners) for about the same investment (or less) compared to the typical I/H/E which does very little for actual performance. Similarly if you build an absolutely insane naturally aspirated engine, you're going to KILL your low-end torque for max HP up top... so this might be an entertaining option for these setups, although we KNOW how stubborn "all-motor" guys can be about forced induction options

skilzz

Well if the E/SC can compensate lag for boost then by all means it is comething worth considering but then I would really be concerned with space limitations general appearance etc as well asmy options to run this add on to any current turbo charger setup but hey sometimes a little lag isn't all that bad in a front wheel drive car because too much off the line power (torque)power can actually get you nowhere or break drivetrains. But basically if i get to keep my current setup and just add on a "Lag minimizer" and not have to give anything at all up to accomodate this whether it be power, streetability, driveable, reliability, looks and be completely satisfied then sign me up right now.

CovertFI

i am cramed for space already under my hood and i have a sohc. how big are we talking about and what are you using to control this?

falcongsr

I am definitely not as hard core as the average forced induction regular here, and i think its a GREAT idea, since you've got the reasoning thought out behind this setup. My cars will always be daily drivable. I would love to support any kind of development you want to try. I have a civic DX-auto and a GSR with AEM EMS and a turbo in the works. I woud like to try something like this on the weak civic as well as the GSR before I turbo it (and maybe after as well).

This is a different electrical approach to a similar problem Honda has been trying to overcome with their Integrated Motor Assist technology on the Insight and the new ULEV civic. They get a burst of torque for off the line acceleration from the motor integrated in the flywheel. With your setup, it sounds like we can get a low end boost by forcing more air into the motor in its lifeless low end. I like it