Honda Accord (1990 - 2002) Includes 1997 - 1999 Acura CL

wheels not centered? Suspension problem?

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Old 01-22-2008, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: wheels (TouringAccord)

Originally Posted by TouringAccord

I assume that is in responce to wanting to know more about the subframes?

ok, I'll probably miss or forget a few things as this was from ~4+ years ago and I don't have my manual in front of me.

-of course you will want to raise and support the front of the car and remove the front wheels.
-the lower exhaust manifold will need to be removed/lowered so spray the bolts (where upper and lower meet as well as where the manifold bolts to the exhaust pipe) with PB Blaster now. (best to do it over night but just make sure you let it sit for a while)
-you can now start by removing the radius rods (since you will be replacing those) 1 nut at the front beam and 2 bolts on the LCA, remove the nut first.
-next you can remove the LCA (see steps in my other post)
-make sure knuckle is supported.
-you can do all that to both sides.
-by this time, you should be able to remove/lower the lower exhaust manifold. To do this, you will need a long extension and socket to get to the 3 nuts on the lower side of where the upper and lower manifolds meet. I hope that made sense. You are just separating the upper and lower exhaust manifolds. Don't forget to unplug the O2 sensor. Next remove the nut/bolt that hold the lower manifold to the block. You can either remove the lower manifold completely by unbolting it from the exhaust pipe or remove some hangers and let the exhaust manifold drop out of the way. Personally I would just let it drop and hang out of the way.
-remove the center beam of the subframe.
-inside the car you'll need separate the steering column from the power steering rack. There is a rubber boot near the floor, remove that and you'll see the steering column. You'll the connection, mark the connection with a marker so you can install it in the same position. Now loosen the bolt so the steering rack can drop from the steering column.
-drain the power steering fluid.
-remove the driver side steering rod end from the inner steering rod.
-turn the steering wheel all the way to the left while still connected to the steering rack, this moves the steering rack to one side that allows you to slide the steering rack out of the subframe. Take care to not move the steering wheel of the power steering rack so that everything lines up correctly when reinstalled.
-there are two hard lines going to the power steering rack, remove those. best to use flare nut wrenches to not round or damage the soft line fittings.
-now you can unbolt the power steering rack from the subframe and remove it, you will notice the exhaust needs to be out of the way to do this so make sure you have enough room. If you remove enough hangers you'll have enough, I never completely removed mine.
-now with a jack and a piece of wood, support the engine at the oil pan. This will hold the engine up while you remove the ream beam/motor mount and replace it.
-unbolt the motor mount, 1 bolt going through the mount.
-remove the four bolts holding the subframe to the car.
-the subframe should drop from the car now.
-remove the rear motor mount from the subframe and mount it onto the new subframe. Mine came from an auto while mine was a manual so one of the threads hole I needed was quite rusted, I just ran a tap through it to clean it out.
-Once the motor mount is replaced, bolt the new subframe back into the car and bolt the motor mount back into the bracket.
-if the jack is in your way then remove it, otherwise just leave it for when you do the front beam.
-now start installing everything you removed in reverse order. You install the exhaust now if you want but leave the center beam off until the front beam is replaced. Also leave the LCA and radius rods off the car until after the front beam.
-after installing all that you can move to the front.
-unbolt the front motor mount, the bolt going through the middle of the mount.
-there shouldn't be anything else connected to the front beam now so you can unbolt the four bolts holding it to the car and remove the front beam. Make sure you still have the jack in place supporting the engine.
-once out, remove the front motor mount from the beam and replace it onto the new one.
-reinstall the new front beam and bolt the motor mount back to the engine bracket.
-you can now install the center beam between the rear and front beams.
-install the new radius rods making sure to install the bushings correctly.
-install the new LCA.
-finish installing the rest of the parts you removed.
-lower the car and take it in for an alignment.

I hope that helps and is what you were looking for.
damm that seems alot for just a mid crossbeam
Old 01-23-2008, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wesk18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nope i just took it to one shop! but i am going to take it to this other shop today or tomorrow</TD></TR></TABLE>

definitely do that.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wesk18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">damm that seems alot for just a mid crossbeam</TD></TR></TABLE>

well, the front isn't bad of course but everything that is attached to the rear beam is what makes it more. You have the exhaust in the way and the steering rack is inside it.

It's not so much as being hard work IMO, but it's time consuming due to everything that has to be removed. The hardest part will probably be the exhaust manifold nuts because they can become very rusted on, the power steering lines to the rack my pose a problem if they are in a hard to reach area but other than that it's just unbolting things that shouldn't be all that hard.

I would give yourself plenty of time if you tackle this yourself and a garage if possible.
Old 01-23-2008, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

yea 60 bucks for a 4 wheel alignment
Old 01-23-2008, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: wheels (loup05)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by loup05 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea 60 bucks for a 4 wheel alignment</TD></TR></TABLE>

kool
is his car low ??
cuz i went 2 sears and they dont do alignment on lowered cars??


Modified by wesk18 at 3:20 PM 1/23/2008
Old 01-23-2008, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: wheels (TouringAccord)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TouringAccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

definitely do that.

well, the front isn't bad of course but everything that is attached to the rear beam is what makes it more. You have the exhaust in the way and the steering rack is inside it.

It's not so much as being hard work IMO, but it's time consuming due to everything that has to be removed. The hardest part will probably be the exhaust manifold nuts because they can become very rusted on, the power steering lines to the rack my pose a problem if they are in a hard to reach area but other than that it's just unbolting things that shouldn't be all that hard.

I would give yourself plenty of time if you tackle this yourself and a garage if possible.</TD></TR></TABLE>

how long it took u too remove the rear beam and how long it takes to remove the front with the rods and the lower control arms??

hey can u check my other threath too about suspension

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2
thanks !!
Old 01-23-2008, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

honestly I dont know how long it would take. When I did mine I had my motor out. But if I were doing it again, I'd give myself a full weekend at least to work on it. Always plan for the worst so if it happens you are prepared. Nothing like Sunday night your not done and you need the car for Monday morning you know.
Old 01-23-2008, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: wheels (TouringAccord)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TouringAccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">honestly I dont know how long it would take. When I did mine I had my motor out. But if I were doing it again, I'd give myself a full weekend at least to work on it. Always plan for the worst so if it happens you are prepared. Nothing like Sunday night your not done and you need the car for Monday morning you know.</TD></TR></TABLE>

oh ok then
Old 01-23-2008, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

It's a time consuming job, make no mistake. I doubt if you will have it done in 1 day unless you have help from someone who's done it before and you don't run into any problems. But like I said, I always plan for problems so I'm not frustrated and surprised when something doesn't go to plan.
Old 01-24-2008, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: wheels (TouringAccord)

where are you guys getting the fact that lowering your car changes caster. if it does change at all, its not going to push back his wheels that far back. my car has been lowered from stock down to 3 inches back and forth on coilovers. not once has it altered my caster to that degree. stock degree is 2.0-4.0. i curbed my passenger side and jack mine up pretty good and its sitting at -.09. sound bad but by eye it pretty much looks centered and is no where close to how far his is pushed back. only thing that will change massively when lowering is toe and camber. you guys must be getting camber and caster mixed up. caster is affected by bent suspension parts. and i doubt very seriously if you will find different size radius rods made for your particular model. go to a framing shop and let them see if your car has frame damage if you can't find bent parts.
Old 01-24-2008, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: wheels (flight50)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where are you guys getting the fact that lowering your car changes caster. if it does change at all, its not going to push back his wheels that far back. my car has been lowered from stock down to 3 inches back and forth on coilovers. not once has it altered my caster to that degree. stock degree is 2.0-4.0. i curbed my passenger side and jack mine up pretty good and its sitting at -.09. sound bad but by eye it pretty much looks centered and is no where close to how far his is pushed back. only thing that will change massively when lowering is toe and camber. you guys must be getting camber and caster mixed up. caster is affected by bent suspension parts. and i doubt very seriously if you will find different size radius rods made for your particular model. go to a framing shop and let them see if your car has frame damage if you can't find bent parts.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I DID WENT TO A SHOP I NEED TO REPLACE MY FRONT CROSSMEMBER AND FRONT REAR MY LCA AND THE RIGHT ROD AND SPINDLE( I DONT KNOW WHATS A SPINDLE UNLESS I LOOK AT IT)

I JUST NEED TWO MORE PARTS TO FIX MY PROBLEM!!
Old 01-24-2008, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: wheels (flight50)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where are you guys getting the fact that lowering your car changes caster. if it does change at all, its not going to push back his wheels that far back. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed. Unless the suspension has anti dive geometry (i.e. one or both wishbones as viewed from the side being angled from the horizontal between the forward and rearward wishbone chassis mounts) then caster won't change with a ride height change. This is because both the upper and lower ball joints will rise relative to the chassis without moving either forward or backward, thus maintaining a constant caster angle regardless of chassis height.

If anti dive is present then at least one wishbone will be mounted higher at one end than the other, and as the ball joint on that wishbone rises relative to the chassis the ball joint will also move longitudinally relative to the chassis and to the other ball joint. This would usually be the lower ball joint moving slightly forward thus increasing caster angle with lowered ride hight. Caster angle would also change with bump and rebound motion, at least one reason why anti-dive is rarely used. Anti dive is quite rare these days as it tends to cause more problems than it cures (and it doesn't cure much, if anything).

If you were to lower only the front of the car then the chassis would take on a forward rake of X°, and the caster would also decrease by X°, but this is a tiny change.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">only thing that will change massively when lowering is toe and camber. you guys must be getting camber and caster mixed up. caster is affected by bent suspension parts. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed again. The camber and toe change is unlikely to be great with a small drop, though enough to at least require checking. Camber will most probably change more than toe will.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and i doubt very seriously if you will find different size radius rods made for your particular model. go to a framing shop and let them see if your car has frame damage if you can't find bent parts. </TD></TR></TABLE>

There is some scope for camber adjustment in at least some Hondas and I'd expect most. Camber can be reduced quite a bit with spacer washers inserted at the forward lower wishbone (i.e. radius rod) mounting, the spacer(s) placed between the radius rod shoulder and the retaining washer.

There is often a small washer fitted at this point, and this can be removed for a very slight caster increase. A more significant caster increase requires effectively shortening the radius rod which can be achieved by either turning, or grinding and filing the metal at the rod shoulder to move the rod shoulder farther up the rod. 'Shortening' the rod in this manner by 1cm creates a significant caster increase, more than you'd expect. It would be unwise to increase caster further than this as it will cause issues with misalignment of the inner control arm bush (they can tolerate some misalignment, but it's not good to push this too far).


Old 01-25-2008, 04:46 AM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

did you take it into that other shop yet to see what they say?
Old 01-25-2008, 09:37 AM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wesk18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I DID WENT TO A SHOP I NEED TO REPLACE MY FRONT CROSSMEMBER AND FRONT REAR MY LCA AND THE RIGHT ROD AND SPINDLE( I DONT KNOW WHATS A SPINDLE UNLESS I LOOK AT IT)

I JUST NEED TWO MORE PARTS TO FIX MY PROBLEM!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

whoa buddy. no need to shout. i am trying to help. you say that you went to a shop. did you go to a alignment shop or a frame aligning shop. there is a big difference. a regular shop can't really tell you much about your frame. you can replace suspension parts all day long and still be off. if your frame is screwed, then your screwed unless you get it to the appropriate shop.


Modified by flight50 at 1:07 AM 1/26/2008
Old 01-25-2008, 04:20 PM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

woah buddy. no need to shout. i am trying to help. you say that you went to a shop. did you go to a alignment shop or a frame aligning shop. there is a big difference. a regular shop can't really tell you much about your frame. you can replace suspension parts all day long and still be off. if your frame is screwed, then your screwed unless you get it to the appropriate shop. </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol
naw i wasnt shouting i forgot to take the caps lock
i went to an alignment and frame shop they showed me under the car what is mest up and needs replace bcuz that car was previouly hit and the freaking owner didnt bother to tell me whats wrong with it but i got all the parts i need except for two parts if i would of done it there but it was going to be 1,129 so i was like heck no!! i rather search for the parts and get a hook up with a mechanic to fix it!!
Old 01-25-2008, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

you did the right thing. get the parts yourself. i got mine from the local junkyard and did the work myself with the help of a friend. shops rip you off. they have all the right tools and could do a job in 3 times less than what they charge you but they make the profit by over charging. they jack off with the remaining time they said it would take.
Old 01-25-2008, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: wheels (TouringAccord)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you did the right thing. get the parts yourself. i got mine from the local junkyard and did the work myself with the help of a friend. shops rip you off. they have all the right tools and could do a job in 3 times less than what they charge you but they make the profit by over charging. they jack off with the remaining time they said it would take. </TD></TR></TABLE>

yup yup, i know the parts that they guy was going to put werent going to be new and i was like man heck him i am searching for this parts online, i know mechanics rip off alot people and for what, thats not how u get customers

i just need my front rear crossmember and the front right spindle!
Old 01-27-2008, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: wheels (flight50)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you did the right thing. get the parts yourself. i got mine from the local junkyard and did the work myself with the help of a friend. shops rip you off. they have all the right tools and could do a job in 3 times less than what they charge you but they make the profit by over charging. they jack off with the remaining time they said it would take. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you got to remember they charge for how many hours 'the book' says it will take, most mechanics will get paid for that set amount of hours whether it takes them half the time, or double to get the job done. and you gotta keep in mind on top of paying the mechanics, the shop has alot of overhead fees they gotta take care of too. factor all those in and the price of labor seems rather justified.
Old 01-27-2008, 08:23 PM
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/\ /\ /\ agreed /\ /\ /\.. u pay us for our knowledge... mechanics get paid by the book.. whatever the book says thats what we get paid.. . if we finish a 6hr job in 3 hrs we still get paid the full 6.. but if we do 6hr job in 10hrs then we just end up eating it
Old 01-27-2008, 08:53 PM
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to us non-mechanics, basically we look at it as a rip off. some of the simple jobs, we can do. you mean to tell me that for you mechanics, that you will let another mechanic touch your car when you can do it, or you can learn to do it, get some knowledge and experience behind the task and you can help others along the way with what you just did. knowledge is priceless but letting someone do it for you all the time is expensive. besides the time eaten is more than likely made up in the time when it really don't take that long, so shops still profit or balance out.
Old 01-27-2008, 09:21 PM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to us non-mechanics, basically we look at it as a rip off. some of the simple jobs, we can do. you mean to tell me that for you mechanics, that you will let another mechanic touch your car when you can do it, or you can learn to do it, get some knowledge and experience behind the task and you can help others along the way with what you just did. knowledge is priceless but letting someone do it for you all the time is expensive. besides the time eaten is more than likely made up in the time when it really don't take that long, so shops still profit or balance out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you have the knowledge and capability to do it yourself than more power to you. thats what this forum is here for. im just trying to have you see it in a different point of view before you start saying that mechanics are rip-offs. and i too, would rather do things myself, but there are times when i simply dont have the time, tools, and/or ability too.
Old 01-28-2008, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: wheels (pos_cd5)

whoa whoa whoa, off topic?

real fast though, lets keep something in mind. These are businesses and they are looking to turn a profit. Whether it be small or large. Naturally anything you can do yourself is going to cost less, thats just a general rule throughout life not just for car repairs. You will find some shady places, sure, but not all are. They should all be going by the same amount of hours for any given job. The difference in prices comes down to where/how much they get their parts, their mark up and their labor rate. Those can vary from shop to shop.

Now, if you want to continue this discussion please take it to PM's or make a thread in GDD. This thread is for discussing this members suspension problems
Old 01-28-2008, 05:26 PM
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didn't mean to go off on a tangent. to the orginal post, his problem is basically solved. he knows what has to be done. but i didn't bash one single shop, one bad apple will bring on a general opinion of them all is all i was stating.
Old 01-29-2008, 04:20 AM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flight50 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to the orginal post, his problem is basically solved. he knows what has to be done. </TD></TR></TABLE>

maybe... maybe not. Still, the thread should be kept on topic.
Old 02-13-2008, 03:17 PM
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Ok, so the mechanic that my cousin send me to finish my work on the car, except the spindle i didnt change that part bcuz the spindle i bought we werent able to take it apart and change the parts we need, well i am leaving that until i get the another spindle, i went to do the front alignment because it felt really unstable while driving the car and hitting a couple of potholes in the street

now i am driving with a bad spindle,
what problems does a front right bad spindle will cause me while driving???

now my car pulls to the right side is the bad spindle at fault?
Old 02-14-2008, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: wheels (wesk18)

did you get an alignment? Did you get a print of the specs?


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