johnlivingston

Every summer I trade cars with my son to work on his 97 EX 5 speed, four cylinder, with about 170K miles. This year my two big projects were the brakes (it routinely fails state inspection because the pedal is too close to the floor and has insufficient travel - solved that - after many Hontec techs didn't - by replacing the pedal assembly!) and occasionally refusing to start when warmish (never had the problem in the four months I've borrowed it - I replaced the ignition switch and key assembly, since it was difficult to turn anyway. I also put in a starter button on the dash, so he could bypass the switch if necessary).

Anyhow, I thought I'd made a lot of progress on the car and started driving it to work to be sure. It did fine for two weeks, then one morning, after about four miles of a ten mile commute, it quits at 45 mph. Just like you'd turned off the key. Aftermarket car alarm (pro installed) pops up the door locks, everything on the dash goes dead. I coast into a lot, turn the new key set, zip. Open the door, the courtesy lights come on, car still won't start. I open the hood, don't see anything wrong, get back in and it starts. Drives fine the rest of the way to work and the return trip. Does fine for two weeks of commuting, then dies while sitting at a stop light, a mile from the house. Same Chinese fire drill. Once the hood is latched and I'm back in the car, it's okay. Another two weeks go by, I go out in the morning to start it and nothing. No dash lights at all, same as before, except this time it doesn't start period. I drive something else to work. Get home that evening. It starts right up. That was about a week ago. Today, after about half a dozen successful uses, it again starts right up, drives about a block, and dies. I pull into a side street. Within seconds it restarts, but then shuts off and won't start again. I drive something else to work.

I did have much of the dash apart putting in the new pedal assemblies (did the clutch, too, while I was at it - solved a horrible creak). I've left the main panel off to give me access. Shaking wires, jiggling the alarm box and connections, hitting the ignition switch, none of that seems to make a difference. It just starts when it feels like it. If I remember correctly, the ring light around the ignition key slot does come on when you insert the key, whether the car starts or not.

Any thoughts on where to start trouble shooting? I'm thinking I need to check for voltage at the switch, for starters, when an incident occurs.

I've done a host of other work to the car recently: head gasket, ignition cable set, plugs, distributor cap, one power door lock assembly, etc., but most of it of a non-electrical nature.

I did try to pull codes, but there weren't any. Battery terminals are tight.

Thanks for putting up my my usual long-windedness.

John

johnlivingston

Some more notes: I did hose down the engine pretty well after installing the new valve cover gasket. No problems after that. Later, when I put in a coupling for an oil pressure gauge, I cleaned and hosed off the under, back side of the engine around the oil filter. After that, the engine seemed to run just a bit rougher (it's always run very smoothly), so I did the plugs, wires, cap, etc., but saw no real improvement. I'd have to say the shutting off started after that cleaning, but it was also after a whole lot of other things.

My first reaction was that the new ignition switch/key lock must be defective. However, I've tried jiggling it, turning it off and on repeatedly, etc., and can't duplicate the problem that way. I'd really like to find a way to quickly determine if 12 volts are getting to the ignition switch when the issue crops up.

John

FAK_LAF

When it will not start, have you checked to see if you are getting spark at the plugs? If no, it could be the igniter in the distributor (common problem). I would say replace the cap first, but you already did that. Also check and listen if the fuel pump is coming on when you turn the ignition on. Or you can disconnect the fuel line going into the rail to see if fuel squirts out (indication of fuel pressure). If there is no fuel pressure, it might be the main relay under the dash or possibly the fuel pump. Try narrowing it down to a fuel or spark problem first. I have had the same symptoms before as well. Once it was the ingniter and once it was the main relay.

holmesnmanny

Normally when the car dies while driving and the dash lights don't come on that normally is ignition switch related. However, you say the car doesn't immediately restart but starts a short time later, this is normally a main relay symptom. I think you should replace the main relay if you haven't already since this may have been the original issue. You could have an issue with either the ignition switch wiring or that switch itself.

Where did you get the ignition switch from ?

This is the best site for information on testing the ignition switch and main relay.

http://techauto.awardspace.com/ignitionswitch.html

johnlivingston

I can't test the plugs or listen to the fuel pump as the car is completely dead, just as if the ignition key was not in the car. The interior lights will come on when you open the door, but when you turn the ignition key, absolutely nothing happens. Nothing lights up on the dash, the starter does not turn, zip.

I ordered the new key set and switch from Autozone. Here's the info.

Locksmart/Ignition Switch
Part Number: LC62790
Alternate Part Number: LC62791
Application: LX, EX model
With manual transmission

Notes: Ignition lock and cylinder switch

Seemed well made, but that's just appearances.

I'll order a main relay from Rock Auto. I may order a spare ignition switch, too, just to try, since it's only about $20 for just the switch.

I thought the main relay was mainly just a problem when the car warmed up? This is typically happening either when the car is dead cold or has been driven just a mile or two.

Worth at try, though, since he had had the warm start issue, too (although I've not seen it in four or so months of use).

Thanks.

John

johnlivingston

And thanks for the link. It's got the bypass info I was looking for, along with a host of other useful information.

John

cstone

Check out all of your grounds. My girl's TL did the same thing. I replaced the main relay with no change. A mechanic told me that Hondas/Acuras often develop bad grounds. I found that it was the negative battery cable on her car.


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johnlivingston

Still having problems, but I may have narrowed it down considerably.

I replaced the main relay and the battery's ground cable. No improvement. The car still shuts off without warning. It only does this in the morning, on the way to work. So far, never in the afternoon. I thought that the only obvious difference would be my running the headlights in the morning, as I come home long before dusk. Perhaps related is another electrical issue: the parking lights come on as soon as you turn the ignition key. I thought perhaps the ignition and lights circuits have crossed somewhere and then turning on the switch somehow adds to the load and eventually trips a relay. So I tried driving in this morning with the headlights off (but the parking lights on by default, despite the switch being on "off.") The car shut off four times!

The big news, though, is that I was able to get it to restart quickly each time by hitting the top of the passenger-side relay/fuse box under the hood. When I replaced the valve cover gasket, I did use some Gunk engine cleaner and hosed it all off. I'm beginning to suspect I got moisture in the fuse box and now need to pull everything and clean the connections.

It may not be coincidence that the daytime running light (fuse #4) circuit in the panel is pretty close to the 50A ignition switch (fuse #5).

Maybe I need a new fuse box? Any recommendations on a cleaner I might just soak the whole thing with? Just spray it thoroughly with WD40?

There's a 94-97 EX fuse box on ebay cheap, but it says it's from an automatic car, not a stick. Would it still do the job?

Thanks!

John

holmesnmanny

Did you replace the ignition switch or no ?

johnlivingston

I replaced it twice! I initially replaced the whole key assembly, including the switch. Seemed like the shutting off issue didn't crop up until after that assembly was replaced (I replaced it because the key was getting increasingly difficult to turn). Unfortunately, I'd tossed the original unit, so couldn't put it back to see if that fixed things. It still seemed like an ignition switch sort of issue, since everything shuts off just like you turned the key, so I bought another switch, USA-made, and installed that (keeping the key assembly I'd already put in). No improvement.

John

johnlivingston

Oh, Lordy, it looks like I've fixed it. I went out to spray a bit of WD40 on some of the contacts, went to pull the ignition fuse and, lo and behold, one of the hold-down bolts wasn't just loose, it was completely missing! Luckily, all the parts thrown at the problem were needed for other issues, except for the $20 second ignition switch and the $28 fuse box I ordered from ebay about 30 minutes ago. Oh well, I've temporarily borrowed a matching (albeit longer) bolt from the ABS system. How important can that be?

I'll check back in in a couple of weeks to let you know if it's truly been solved.

BTW I've not done anything in that fuse box before now, so I can only assume it's lacked that bolt for the entire five years we've owned the car.

Now I just need to figure out why the parking lights are coming on without being switched on. Maybe I'll order a new engine and see if that fixes it.

Thanks.

John "Not a Noob for Nuttin" Livingston

holmesnmanny

I hope that fixes it, bud.