non-VTEC

hey guys.

just wanted to post up some screen shots of my ignition tables to have some expert tuners have a look over and give me their honest opinions on it.

fuel tuning is for the most part easy enough. its always richer than 12:1 under boost so i have that under control but ignition timing i think plays a much bigger part in a boosted honda engine. my engine suffered a slow death last year because of too much timing and shitty fuel so this time i want to be sure I'm not doing something totally wrong. although the engine has to come apart again shortly for some inspection....... .... but thats another problem i'll deal with later.

a little info:
fully built B20/VTEC
84.5mm 9.3:1CR
t3/t04e 57-trim .63ar
rc750cc's
walbro 255lph HP
3" DP and 3" exhaust
vtec x-over set at 4600rpm
NGK heat range 7 plugs.
running on sunoco 94 octane all the time. (was running 91oct last year )

low cam timing tables in graph and 2d view:






high cam timing in graph and 2d view:






you will see some dipping in the 2d view around 4500-5000rpm due to the fact that's where i have my vtec x-over set at. i understand its better to pull a little timing away in that area to compensate for the extra "rush" of air going into the cylinders at that point.

i run 10psi daily and occasionally 15psi when i feel like doing a 3'rd gear burnout on the highway at 65mph

unfortunately my P28 ECU does not have a knock sensor so that kinda sucks i have to try to fight detonation without a knock sensor. the plugs always look good. no signs of detonation BUT i do get extremely high EGT's from 6000+rpm all the time. i don't know if it's the shitty autometer EGT gauge or maybe I'm pulling to much timing up top?

any input from?

thanks

non-VTEC

bump?

boosted k20

the timing doesnt seem that bad. but to be safe i would lower the timing from 7.19 psi and above by 1.5-2* and then play with timing on a dyno. save up some cash and get on a dyno to tune out ur ignition.


also what map sensor are u using? if u are using a 2.5 bar map sensor or any other mapsensor, you are supposed to leave the map scalar headings in the 1st and last column stock. DONT change them. u have the last column set to 18.95 psi. if u have a 2.5 bar set it back to 22.05psi and the 1st cloumn 26.97 in/hg

non-VTEC

it's actually a 3.5bar map sensor.

i changed all the map scalers around to i can tune the lower boost portions easier and vacuum portions easier....i don't have any plans to go above 19-20psi so i left the last column at 19psi and it seems to run fine like that.

I'm afraid to pull more timing out of the thing because i already have high EGT's.....i think i'll just leave it as is until i get some dyno time and see how much power it makes....

blackeg

i'm dyno tuned on a 81mm lsvtec on about 16*. i know that you can run a lil more due to a larger bore, but id probably be running something like 17* @15 lbs.

only real way to tell is to get on a dyno. i was very suprised how quick and easy it was to tune ignition with a tq curve to reference

non-VTEC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm dyno tuned on a 81mm lsvtec on about 16*. i know that you can run a lil more due to a larger bore, but id probably be running something like 17* @15 lbs.

only real way to tell is to get on a dyno. i was very suprised how quick and easy it was to tune ignition with a tq curve to reference</TD></TR></TABLE>

im gonna have to hit the dyno to find out for sure.......i had way to much timing in it at one point and ruined a perfectly good set of wiseco pistons......doh!

i might just pull more timing and leave it until i can find some dyno time.

boosted k20

do urself a favor and set the last boost clolumn higher than 19 psi. what happens if one day u get a boost spike and it goes past 19 psi???? the ecu wont give the car enought fuel if it sees above 19 psi. Just rescale ur map values and do what im telling u or else u might blow another motor

non-VTEC

i already changed the last column to 23psi.....just to be safe.....

SPL Dan

Seems like your high cam map has a tad much timming in it for pump gas and that high of boost ..


Too be safe I would back out ATLEAST 2 degree's as at 16psi I run 16.5deg total timing in my motor on 93 Octane

Pay2play killa

people still use uberdata?


use crome; it's 1000x better

SPL Dan

Ubderdata still works , and its free

Average Al

so is crome

crome pro u need to pay

i really like the crome interface alot more
but both uberdata and crome work

non-VTEC

i tried crome and i dont like it.......been using uberdata for the past 3+ years and i find it much easier to use.....

plus i can datalog for free with it.....

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by non-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
running on sunoco 94 octane all the time. (was running 91oct last year )</TD></TR></TABLE>



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by non-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm afraid to pull more timing out of the thing because i already have high EGT's.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

On which cylinders? Or, let me guess, you don't know that and think a single EGT tells you anything worth knowing. You're tuning with UD because it has no ability to adjust individual cylinder trims on a setup where ICT adjustment becomes mandatory for safety, so you'd rather espouse UD being free over actually knowing what's going on in your engine and tuning accordingly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by non-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">unfortunately my P28 ECU does not have a knock sensor so that kinda sucks i have to try to fight detonation without a knock sensor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Honduh knock sensor implementation does no such thing. It is used for trimming ignition timing at part throttle cruise for emissions reasons, and is NEVER used under load.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by non-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the plugs always look good. no signs of detonation</TD></TR></TABLE>

Based on everything you've said so far I'm pretty sure reading *my* your plugs would make me freak the expletive out. A high amount of airmass and high enough pressure to make flow through the intake/engine become unbalanced, as well as have thermally trapped #3 take on significantly more heat, and there is no way in hell your plugs are reading evenly with zero ICT correction and the ignition timing you have.

Everything you are complaining about is nothing I ever worry about because I make sure I have the tools and knowledge to get the job done correctly. Your problems are:

1) you don't know how to read plugs.
2) you don't know how to use EGTs.
3) you are using software that works great for the stock MAP sensor boys at a level where you need a more sophisticated tool.
4) you have zero experience with ignition timing to know where to park it for safety on your setup, and are unwilling to take your car to a dyno to acquire not just ballpark knowledge but precise knowledge about *your* engine, so you'll just continue to drive your car as is... even though you claim to be serious about tuning fuel and ignition after a poor tune killed your old engine over the long haul.

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by non-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i tried crome and i dont like it.......been using uberdata for the past 3+ years and i find it much easier to use.....

plus i can datalog for free with it..... </TD></TR></TABLE>
The $150 for crome pro really isn't that bad and it logs way more than uberdata ever logged not to mention actually being able to save entire logs and look over them later on. I used uberdata for the longest time as well and it just was lacking so many things that crome has. What really made me finally decide to switch to crome was when I tried using a motorolla 2.5bar in uber. It drove like **** getting on and off the gas with the 2.5bar. No matter where i set fuel cut. For some reason it would take too long for the fuel to kick back in once you give it load again and when i would shift while getting on it it would actually cause me to lean out going into the next gear when i'd let off the gas and go into high vacuum. This was causing me to get knock for the first couple seconds into the next gear. If I full throttle shifted i would have no knock or leaness since i wasn't dipping back into fuel cut. Now with crome the 2.5bar runs the car just like the stock map


Modified by SOHC_MShue at 11:55 AM 8/9/2006

boosted k20

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The $150 for crome pro really isn't that bad and it logs way more than uberdata ever logged not to mention actually being able to save entire logs and look over them later on. I used uberdata for the longest time as well and it just was lacking so many things that crome has. What really made me finally decide to switch to crome was when I tried using a motorolla 2.5bar in uber. It drove like **** getting on and off the gas with the 2.5bar. No matter where i set fuel cut. For some reason it would take too long for the fuel to kick back in once you give it load again and when i would shift while getting on it it would actually cause me to lean out going into the next gear when i'd let off the gas and go into high vacuum. This was causing me to get knock for the first couple seconds into the next gear. If I full throttle shifted i would have no knock or leaness since i wasn't dipping back into fuel cut. Now with crome the 2.5bar runs the car just like the stock map


Modified by SOHC_MShue at 11:55 AM 8/9/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>


i agree. i switched from uberdata to cromePRO on my setup last week. car feels alot better and the crome interface is insanely awesome. i love the datalogging feature. i lokie it more than HONDATA too

raene

My setup is quite similar to yours and I'm pinging like crazy at 16* timing. Right now I can't run more than 8.5* of timing at 12psi. Chevron 94 octane, open 3" dump.

It's not just here's my engine, everything from the turbo to the exhaust manifold matters in what timing you can run safely.

Obviously I have some problems in my setup, just showing you that without using something to detect knock (ahem det cans) you're going to shoot yourself in the foot trying to get good safe timing numbers off a web board. Probably everyone in this thread would say 12* at 12psi would be conservative for my setup but that pings like a ************ for me.

I wouldn't tune off EGT.

SOHC_MShue

Raene have you felt a huge loss in power after pulling out enough timing to keep from knocking? I remember you saying something about this before. Maybe you have oil getting in the cylinders somehow causing your knock threshold to go down.

raene

No loss in power no. I ran the times in my sig on 8.5* of timing. I haven't noticed irregularities on the plugs either but neither have I located the problem

It doesn't really burn oil but that's not out of the question!

Joseph Davis

It makes me sad that hardcore ************* get saddled with the wierd problems, and have to settle for slow high 11 second timeslips. You deserve 10's.