If you do get that setup with the FMU, then you'll have to run it at 7psi.

 

well 7psi is pretty good for stock internals from what i read. if i wanted to up the psi i just change the spring?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skiracer8148 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well 7psi is pretty good for stock internals from what i read. if i wanted to up the psi i just change the spring?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Or get a boost controller..and the stock map sensor is only good till around ~ 11psi

 

130 psi of fuel pressure isn't exactly reliable. Pay for a decent tune and some 450cc injectors

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by _gurusan_ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">130 psi of fuel pressure isn't exactly reliable. Pay for a decent tune and some 450cc injectors</TD></TR></TABLE>
450cc injectors would work fine? would be to much?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by _gurusan_ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">130 psi of fuel pressure isn't exactly reliable. Pay for a decent tune and some 450cc injectors</TD></TR></TABLE>

I had the same injectors for 2 years daily driven (50+miles a day, numerous dyno pulls and track time).. my engine never blew up..
how is that not reliable? i only took out the setup for bigger and better things.

The main reason I keep posting on this thread is this:
the RRFMU setup works great at around 7psi.. i have no clue why people suggest bigger injectors, an aftermarket ecu, and a tune for just 7 psi... it just doesnt make sense.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STD ONEpointSIX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I had the same injectors for 2 years daily driven (50+miles a day, numerous dyno pulls and track time).. my engine never blew up..
how is that not reliable? i only took out the setup for bigger and better things..</TD></TR></TABLE>

No two FMU setups will run 100% identical. Just cause it worked for you for 2 years DD, doesn't mean it will work for everyone else. How can you guarantee that the FMU setup wont run too rich or too lean? even if it isn't running lean, you can still run too rich. If you're too rich you'll wash your cylinders in gas, and this leads to detonation. If you're lucky your FMU setup wont let you run too rich or too lean. If you're unlucky then you'll have yourself a blown motor. No two setups will be the same...there will be lots of variations that could contribute to a blown motor. What if he has bad injectors or injectors that are on their way out? what if his stock fuel pump is a little weak/worn? the pressures that FMU's operate at put more wear and tear on those parts possibly to the point where they "break".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STD ONEpointSIX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The main reason I keep posting on this thread is this:
the RRFMU setup works great at around 7psi.. i have no clue why people suggest bigger injectors, an aftermarket ecu, and a tune for just 7 psi... it just doesnt make sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Doesn't make sense? it will be a lot more reliable then an FMU will be, how does that not make sense? And who says you have to tune it yourself or buy all the equipment yourself? if you can find someone nearby who is a competent tuner, has the equipment needed to tune then a chipped ECU is a good option, even if it is only 7 psi.

If someone was willing to meet up with this guy to do some street tuning. Then at the minimum all he would have to do is chip his ECU ($45-$50), and add a datalogging cable $10-$40. DSM 450's can be bought for $40-$80, and he could use the stock fuel pump or a 190lph for $79. If he needs to do an OBD conversion harness that's another $90-$120. So it's really not that expensive.

The only good thing about the FMU is he wont have to worry about getting it tuned. He just has to pray that it wont run too rich or too lean and blow his motor.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skiracer8148 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well 7psi is pretty good for stock internals from what i read. if i wanted to up the psi i just change the spring?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Generally speaking the more boost pressure you run the more fuel pressure you have and the more likely something is to fail. Remember on a 12:1 FMU every pound of boost increases your fuel pressure by 12. Also keep in mind that whenever you raise fuel pressure you lower the amount of fuel the pump can flow. I'd have to do some searching and calculations to see how much fuel a inline and stock intank can flow for say 9-11 psi. But you'd probably have to upgrade your intank pump as well as run an inline pump if you want to run something like 11 psi of boost and a 12:1 FMU.

EDIT: here is an example...if you want to run a 12:1 FMU an 10 psi, you are looking at 12x10 = 120 psi increase in fuel pressure over the stock presure of 45. So at 10 psi of boost your fuel system will be under 165 psi of pressure. One thing that you could do is run a lower rate FMU and bigger injectors. But if you dont know how to calculate fueling requirements based on fuel pressure increases then you might wanna keep away from messing with different size FMU's.

DOUBLE EDIT: one disclaimer I forgot to add about my above example. When you start raising the boost more you have to start worrying about how you wanna retard the timing.


Modified by BlueShadow at 1:04 AM 12/7/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No two FMU setups will run 100% identical. Just cause it worked for you for 2 years DD, doesn't mean it will work for everyone else. How can you guarantee that the FMU setup wont run too rich or too lean? even if it isn't running lean, you can still run too rich. If you're too rich you'll wash your cylinders in gas, and this leads to detonation. If you're lucky your FMU setup wont let you run too rich or too lean. If you're unlucky then you'll have yourself a blown motor. No two setups will be the same...there will be lots of variations that could contribute to a blown motor. What if he has bad injectors or injectors that are on their way out? what if his stock fuel pump is a little weak/worn? the pressures that FMU's operate at put more wear and tear on those parts possibly to the point where they "break"</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never gauranteed anything to anyone AND I never said that just because it lasted 2 years for me, that it would for him anywhere in my post. And who dictates what a "prefect A/F " is? the FMU will get you around 12.5:1 to 11.5:1 A/F ratio in almost all cases under 7 psi that i have delt with. ive personally ran around with 13:1 a/f at WOT with no problems.. People have different theories of A/F ratios. Meaning Tuner A could like A/F ratios around 12.5:1 while Tuner B likes a 10.8:1 A/F.. ive experienced that first hand.. so there is no real argument there...

all of those what ifs you stated can happen with someone tuning your car as well with a reflash.. i mean "what if" a alien popped out of nowhere in your car causing you to panic and accidently hit your boost controller causing it to go past 30psi and you punch the throttle....blown motor.

"What if" a vacuum line comes off while you're at the drag strip.. blown motor..
see what im getting at?

Im just giving this guy MY first hand experience..


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Doesn't make sense? it will be a lot more reliable then an FMU will be, how does that not make sense? And who says you have to tune it yourself or buy all the equipment yourself? if you can find someone nearby who is a competent tuner, has the equipment needed to tune then a chipped ECU is a good option, even if it is only 7 psi

If someone was willing to meet up with this guy to do some street tuning. Then at the minimum all he would have to do is chip his ECU ($45-$50), and add a datalogging cable $10-$40. DSM 450's can be bought for $40-$80, and he could use the stock fuel pump or a 190lph for $79. If he needs to do an OBD conversion harness that's another $90-$120. So it's really not that expensive. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Just like you stated above.. Thereare so many variables.. how can you say that a tune from joe schmoe will be more reliable than an FMU????

okay lets break this down..
chip ecu $45
cable $30
DSM 450 $60
pump $79
harness $100
LABOR FOR TUNING $200 (you forgot that.. this price is pretty low considering most people do a full tune for around $500)

TOTAL: $514


(these are brand new parts JHPUSA.com)
Blox FMU- $100
Fuel pump- $100
Blox Missing link $35

TOTAL: $235

rrFMU setups have been known to last for a long time.. get an A/F meter for safety and call it a day...

BlueShadow.. When I said my setup lasted for 2 years i never garaunteed anything. In no way shape or form did i mention that his or anybodys set up would last for xx amount of years. I'm just giving this guy my first hand experience.

 

I've also seen a friend blow his B18B blow his motor with an FMU setup, and read of countless people blowing motors cause of the FMU. Doesn't matter if it's not omething I experienced first hand. It doesn't change the fact that it still happened.

Couldn't come up with a more realistic what-if other then aliens from space? let's keep it realistic here SHALL WE?

The point I was getting at is there are too many variables that you cannot predict and are out of your control. Like my example with running old injectors that are about to fail. And also the part I mentioned about running extremely high fuel pressure. I'm not saying he should totally stay away from FMU's. HOWEVER I think it is necessary to tell him the side effects of running an FMU and what could possibly happen if a part fails.

With a chipped ECU's it is easier for him to control the variables. If the tuner isn't competent enough, get a better tuner. With the FMU about all you can do is select the best parts and hope for the best.


Like I said just cuse it worked for your setup doesn't mean it will work on his. It probably will, but it's not 100% gauranteed it will work for him as it did for you.

And how can you say that slapping on an FMU will work for him exactly the same way it did for you? Also I said competent tuner...there are lots of people out there who are very good street tuners. If this guy is lucky one of these tuners will be willing to come down and help him out. If not, then the OP is SOL.


I chose not to include tunning fees, because I've seen people people ask for as low as $50 to as high as $100. If it was me in NY I'd probably just charge the guy gas money. Unfortunately for him I live i CA.

When you decided to go with an FMU were you aware of what could happen if something should go wrong? Some people are willing to accept these risks, but other people would not even want to risk it. I notice a lot of people running FMU's will usually say "FMU's are good, it worked or me, etc etc" but they hardly ever go over the downsides of an FMU or what could happen if something goes wrong. I usually tell people the pros and cons and not just the pros. I'll give this guy the pro of going with a chipped ECU setup (more power, more reliable, etc) but I'll also give him the cons (need to find a good tuner, a little more complicated). I'll leave it to him to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

 

oh yah, skiracer8184, if you wanna look into running a chipped ECU setup get with xenocron or go to http://www.pgmfi.org and find a local tuner that knows how to use Crome or Uberdata. If you decide you wanna just run an FMU, then best thing to do is keep it at 7-8 psi.

 

And i've seen people blow up thier cars with a tune. **** happens and either way you still have a chance of blowing up a car with an FMU set up or without.

You are pretty much telling this guy that a tune from joe schmoe is going to be better than an FMU when in fact you cant gaurantee that!!! How the hell do you know what joe the tuner is going to tune his A/F at or what the igntion timing will be set at????


and my point was.. even with a reflash something can go wrong that is completely out of yours/andybodys control.. just like with the FMU set up AND just like YOU said... there are too many variables..i dont see what the hell you are talking about.

The alien story was not my first hand experience, but that happened to my friends uncles pet chinchilla at band camp while they were tuning a car with a reflash...
geez lighten up a little.. it was just a joke.. i could give you a million what ifs that could "really" happen if you really want... but it could seriously go on forever.

how the *&^% is it easier for him to control the "variables" with a reflash tune???
The variables YOU mentioned are out of anybodys control with or without a reflash. I really dont see your logic here.


i never said it would work exactly like my set up.. i only stated my experience with the FMU setup... thats all. You are acting like i told this guy that "it will last for at least 2 years cause mine did"... i never said anything like that so quit it.

[quote=BlueShadow]
And how can you say that slapping on an FMU will work for him exactly the same way it did for you? QUOTE]

I NEVER SAID THAT or implyed that.. again.... i just gave him MY experience with the FMU setup. Quit putting words in my mouth.

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION:

i would test my luck with the FMU @ 7psi than testing my luck with some guy who THINKS hes a tuner.

trust me. im all about aftermarket controllable ecu's... but if i had a stock engine @ 7psi with a drag kit or something.. i would definately choose the FMU route again.. no doubt about it.

yes you are right, price does vary.. but should have still been mentioned. you're all about telling this guy the pros and cons about both, yet you fail to mention the most expensive part of a reflashed ecu.. which is the the cost for tuning.

hey man.. anything can go wrong when you put a turbo kit on a car that was never meant to have one on there on the first place... with or without a reflash tune.

you state that as if it were fact.

 

Like I already said a few times, if he can find a COMPETENT TUNER, he should be ok. COMPETENT meaning somebody that knows what the hell they are doing.

A lot of the things that can go wrong with a chipped ECU setup ARE controllable. By that I mean a lot of the mistakes that could lead to a blown motor or other problems can be attributed to user error. The software has already been proven to work. You just need to find somebody that knows what they are doing to chip your ECU and to tune the car. If you hang around in the Uberdata newbie forums or pgmfi forums long enough you'll see what I'm talking about. For example new tuners making simple mistakes on something like how to burn a chip. This is something you wont see an experienced tuner doing. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about with variables you can control.

All I'm doing is expanding on the downsides of the FMU. You didn't go into detail on the bad part of running an FMU. All you said was it was good to me for 2 years...just dont run it mre then 7 psi. I'm sure he's wanting to know why he cant run it more then 7 psi. even so I'm sure he wantto know about the downsides of running an FMU period.

Yah you got me there I should have mentioned tha tuning costs. I should have also posted up a list of all the features he would get when running a chipped ECU.

Yes, anything can go wrong with an FMU and a chipped ECU setup. There are less things to worry about going wrong with an FMU, but the problem is you dont know for certain if something will go wrong or not. A chipped ECU setup is slightly more complex, but at least the extra things that can go wrong can be controlled. Tuner skills/methods and ECU chipping quality are the main things that can go wrong. However get a good tuner and get a good ECU chipper and you dont have to worry about those things.

If it isn't fact then prove to me that it isn't!

POWER: chipped ECU's have FULL timing and FULL fuel control as well as the ability to change the VTEC x-over point. Fuel and timing can be changed to maximize power and/or safety.

RELIABLE: Mase has tuned a lot of reliable, high HP Hondata setups. That is a perfect example of what you get when you put a chipped ECU setup and a really good tuner together.

If the OP is willing to drive an hour away to Syracuse to a Hondata tuner and spend the extra money, then he can have a setup that can make power and be reliable.




Modified by BlueShadow at 12:43 PM 12/7/2005

 

so since i am getting an engine that was probly sitting in japan for a couple years i should change the injectors in it.should i use the oem ones or get rc ones?and the kit i am getting does come with walbro 255.also does anyone kno anymore about the hondata tuner in syracuse i cant find anything on it

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skiracer8148 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so since i am getting an engine that was probly sitting in japan for a couple years i should change the injectors in it.should i use the oem ones or get rc ones?and the kit i am getting does come with walbro 255.also does anyone kno anymore about the hondata tuner in syracuse i cant find anything on it</TD></TR></TABLE>

sorry things got a little out of control in your thread.

It is a good idea to change your injectors if you are unsure of the quality of your current injectors. Either that or send them to someplace like http://www.rceng.com and they will clean and flow test them to see if they are still good. A lot of places charge about $20-$30 per injector cleaning and flow testing.

Do you know if the kit you are getting has the Walbro intank pump or is it an inline pump? inline pumps are best used for FMU setups, while intanks are best for standalone/chipped ECU's. That's because the inline can handle the very high fuel pressure the FMU will put it through. But if you were to run an intank pump then the extra fuel pressure from the FMU will greatly decrease the amount of fuel the intank pump can flow. So if you are going with an FMU setup you would want an inline pump, and if you are gonna be going with hondata the inline pump *might* work, but the intank pump would be ideal.

As far as Hondata tuners go there are 3 in Ny according to the Hondata dealers list. I dont know how current the list is though. Check out at the Hondata.com site. You could also call Hondata and find out how many dealers/tuners they have in NY.

http://www.hondata.com/dealers.html

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If it isn't fact then prove to me that it isn't!

POWER: chipped ECU's have FULL timing and FULL fuel control as well as the ability to change the VTEC x-over point. Fuel and timing can be changed to maximize power and/or safety.

RELIABLE: Mase has tuned a lot of reliable, high HP Hondata setups. That is a perfect example of what you get when you put a chipped ECU setup and a really good tuner together.

If the OP is willing to drive an hour away to Syracuse to a Hondata tuner and spend the extra money, then he can have a setup that can make power and be reliable.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

stock engine @ 7psi.. when you wiegh out the pros and cons.. the FMU wins IN MY OPINION..

we are not talking about high hp setups here.. were talking about this guys stock engine @ 7psi.
i'm not arguing about a built setup boosting 30psi.. other wise i wouldn't even mention the FMU setup.


skiracer-
I agree with what blueshadow recommended about cleaning the stock injectors at RC if you are going the FMU route and definately get the inline fuel pump over the intank if chosing the FMU route.

If you are getting the drag kit.. they should supply you with everything you need.. the kit comes as a whole.. the drag kit just simplyfies everything and gives you less of a headache.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STD ONEpointSIX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

stock engine @ 7psi.. when you wiegh out the pros and cons.. the FMU wins IN MY OPINION..

we are not talking about high hp setups here.. were talking about this guys stock engine @ 7psi.
i'm not arguing about a built setup boosting 30psi.. other wise i wouldn't even mention the FMU setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I partially agree with what you are saying about the FMU, which is why I haven't totally said in this thread not to use it, I just give a few reasons why some people choose not to use it.

The FMU does win in terms of cost and ease of use/installation. However if you can afford it a Hondata cant be beat in terms of features. Based on skiracers posts, it doesn't look like budget is an issue, (unless he doesn;t know a tuned hondata setup will cost him $600-$900. It looks like distance to a good tuner might be his issue, but that's something he can easily work around.

 

haha yea budget is an issue

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skiracer8148 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha yea budget is an issue </TD></TR></TABLE>

If it is, then you're gonna pay more then just the cost of the Hondata system. If you go to a shop to get tuned you'll have to pay tuning costs which varies from place to place. And dont forget installation costs.

 

it depends on your horspower goals, my friend uses 650's and correct me if im wrong, but pretty sure those injectors can handle over 400whp.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted k20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no tune+boost = KABOOOOOM</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

the pump is inline. should i use a SAfc with this kit or not neccesary?