<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris called me and asked me about the ign. timing, he said there was about 7 more deg. of timing than his map had in boost.

Who "tuned" it?</TD></TR></TABLE>yea chris told me he called you but i dont know why he would say it had more timing then his map,we tried to get the map but his computer wouldnt connect with the ems for some reason so we dont know what was done to the timing...
word of mouth is the timing wasnt touched but again i wasnt there...the tuning was done by a local guy/shop( http://www.horsepowerconnection.com/ ) that mostly does v8 builds and tuning, but has been tuning more and more imports..
i wanted to take the car elsewhere for the tune but the owner was short on cash and the tuner was willing to work with him on payment ...i do know next time the tune will be done elsewhere

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by reactiondc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wanted to take the car elsewhere for the tune but the owner was short on cash and the tuner was willing to work with him on payment ...i do know next time the tune will be done elsewhere </TD></TR></TABLE>

Short on cash....worked out a deal......$700 bucks? That is steep.

I also don't see S2000 on their list of custom Honda programs.... http://www.horsepowerconnection.com/services.htm

 

heatrange 6 plugs?! wtf.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Short on cash....worked out a deal......$700 bucks? That is steep.

I also don't see S2000 on their list of custom Honda programs.... http://www.horsepowerconnection.com/services.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>yes we were very suprised at the cost of the tune considering he just made a couple changes to a pre existing map...the owner hasnt paid the full amount because he only had $300 so he pretty much financed the tune...you may not see s2k specifically on his list but you do see aem...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">heatrange 6 plugs?! wtf.</TD></TR></TABLE>thats exactly what i said when i realized what heat range they were

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FRTURBOS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It was great to have another S2k at the shop. I own the yellow S2k and was very estactic about his numbers. Unfortunetly it also confirmed the worse on my end. #1 is oily and fowled and #2 is not in the best of shape. A loose map created some lean conditions that have for sure added to its undoing. On the great side was this car coming in and setting an example to confirm why worst fears.

No joke this car is making the power. Not only do you have a turbo that is more efficient at this psi and range of use at 10:1 compression but you have a great engine builder to back it up. There is no telling what power this car is going to make later in its life. Congrats and glad to see another S2ki in the area sporting its stuff.

-Chris</TD></TR></TABLE>


as Tony said, yes those plugs were no where near the proper plug. I dont even see how a heatrange number 6 was barely able to make that kind of power without some serious misfire issues even with COP.

But as quoted above, they seem to have already identified the culprit. Which if it caused a lean condition im sure it didnt see the proper boost level either.

Also those plugs dont even seem to be gapped for a boosted 500hp car.

Also he is totally correct about the log manifold and the knock/timing issues, one of the issues being backpressure and the remnants left over from the combustion cycle and where they are still located at the next complete cycle.

and with all the factors starting to come into play i see how and why the cards fell the way they did.

You cant just toss someones MAP into another guys car, to an extent references can be made between the 2 yes, but a full-race turbo kit car, and a log manifold 30R car 2 different compression ratios, and a whole slew of things different.......i dont even see how the "tuner" could charge 700+ bucks

A leaky MAP sensor???? why was this not noticed??? thats horrible.

I think the guy learned a very expensive lesson thru all of this.


also a GT3076R is only capable of 53 lbs/min on the most efficient motor its only gonna make roughly 530-550hp @ the best efficiency possible and somehow this s2k reached 90% efficiency@ 14psi.......cmon'

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


as Tony said, yes those plugs were no where near the proper plug. I dont even see how a heatrange number 6 was barely able to make that kind of power without some serious misfire issues even with COP.
there was a misfire issue at higher boost levels but he had gapped the plugs at stock then closed them down to ?
But as quoted above, they seem to have already identified the culprit. Which if it caused a lean condition im sure it didnt see the proper boost level either.

Also those plugs dont even seem to be gapped for a boosted 500hp car.

Also he is totally correct about the log manifold and the knock/timing issues, one of the issues being backpressure and the remnants left over from the combustion cycle and where they are still located at the next complete cycle.

and with all the factors starting to come into play i see how and why the cards fell the way they did.

You cant just toss someones MAP into another guys car, to an extent references can be made between the 2 yes, but a full-race turbo kit car, and a log manifold 30R car 2 different compression ratios, and a whole slew of things different.......i dont even see how the "tuner" could charge 700+ bucks yes i agree

A leaky MAP sensor???? why was this not noticed??? thats horrible.that was on the fr car not this one
I think the guy learned a very expensive lesson thru all of this.


also a GT3076R is only capable of 53 lbs/min on the most efficient motor its only gonna make roughly 530-550hp @ the best efficiency possible and somehow this s2k reached 90% efficiency@ 14psi.......cmon'
yes the numbers are hard to believe thats why we wanted to verify them on another dyno but unfortunately the motor is toast and next time it is going again it will have a different turbo setup completley
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

well idk even where to start. thats why im going to and just let everyone else comment...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 140sx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well idk even where to start. thats why im going to and just let everyone else comment...</TD></TR></TABLE>its ok zack..you are just young and impatient,i think you learned another very expensive lesson this time...sometimes its the little things that can ruin your day when they all stack up and melt down another engine

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by reactiondc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its ok zack..you are just young and impatient,i think you learned another very expensive lesson this time...sometimes its the little things that can ruin your day when they all stack up and melt down another engine </TD></TR></TABLE>
There will be no melting of anymore engines...or il buy the next ticket off the capital way bridge...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 140sx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
There will be no melting of anymore engines...or il buy the next ticket off the capital way bridge... </TD></TR></TABLE>this time cut no corners dammit,if you cant find plugs locally wait and order them, oh and save up for a new tuner haha

 

not exactly like i cut corners. more like put wrong plugs in due to not knowing that bosh and ngks heat ranges anr not the same. and who is to predict when ur out of fuel or **** like that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 140sx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not exactly like i cut corners. more like put wrong plugs in due to not knowing that bosh and ngks heat ranges anr not the same. and who is to predict when ur out of fuel or **** like that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

"Tuner" shouldn't have touched the car with those plugs in it, knowing what the car was going to do. Oh well, time to travel and get someone else to tune the car who knows it better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

"Tuner" shouldn't have touched the car with those plugs in it, knowing what the car was going to do. Oh well, time to travel and get someone else to tune the car who knows it better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jason is absolutely correctt, the tuner knows when youre out of fuel, i mean all he has to do is check the injector percentage in your ems, its as simple as clicking a button.

I think there is so many things that went wrong, it was just a combination of all the factors, plugs, tune, tuner, all of it played a key role in the meltdown. all i know is when a motor doesnt even last 300 miles...........i would desperately be looking for answers.

but for you to leave a shop and have them let you believe you made 500hp on that particular turbo and set up, would lead me to believe i was comletely snowed over and lied to.


i have tuned quite a few s2ks, none of them have had ANY motor issues due to the tune, 1 had a manifold crack. other than that the 100% STOCK motor'd one has 80,xxx+ miles, and has been boosted for 69,xxx+ miles of its life. i even tuned it on 2 different set ups, one blower & this one turbo.

we even sprayed the stock one, no issues to this day

oh yeah, i do travel to tune as well

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Jason is absolutely correctt, the tuner knows when youre out of fuel, i mean all he has to do is check the injector percentage in your ems, its as simple as clicking a button.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not only the duty percent calculation but the fuel map, a:f ratio, etc.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think there is so many things that went wrong, it was just a combination of all the factors, plugs, tune, tuner, all of it played a key role in the meltdown. all i know is when a motor doesnt even last 300 miles...........i would desperately be looking for answers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree fully

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but for you to leave a shop and have them let you believe you made 500hp on that particular turbo and set up, would lead me to believe i was comletely snowed over and lied to.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again. I agree. For this type of build there had to have been some research and general knowledge about the setup, capability, etc.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have tuned quite a few s2ks, none of them have had ANY motor issues due to the tune, 1 had a manifold crack. other than that the 100% STOCK motor'd one has 80,xxx+ miles, and has been boosted for 69,xxx+ miles of its life. i even tuned it on 2 different set ups, one blower & this one turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah Yeah Yeah

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we even sprayed the stock one, no issues to this day </TD></TR></TABLE>

Once my web host works out some issues I will show you a picture of a throttle body from this past weekend ... I hate spray, lol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh yeah, i do travel to tune as well </TD></TR></TABLE>

How much do you charge? I will give you $10.00 and a glass of water Happy New Year Mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

"Tuner" shouldn't have touched the car with those plugs in it, knowing what the car was going to do. Oh well, time to travel and get someone else to tune the car who knows it better.</TD></TR></TABLE>i highly doubt the tuner knew what plugs the owner bought for the car,its hard for me to blame that on the tuner

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Jason is absolutely correctt, the tuner knows when youre out of fuel, i mean all he has to do is check the injector percentage in your ems, its as simple as clicking a button.the car was hooked up to the dynos wideband and the tuner didnt say anything about an excessive high duty cycle

I think there is so many things that went wrong, it was just a combination of all the factors, plugs, tune, tuner, all of it played a key role in the meltdown. all i know is when a motor doesnt even last 300 miles...........i would desperately be looking for answers.believe me we were looking for answers but i believe we may have found them
but for you to leave a shop and have them let you believe you made 500hp on that particular turbo and set up, would lead me to believe i was comletely snowed over and lied to. trust me when i tell you i didnt expect to be making that kind of power either,i expected maybe 4-420 ish at 15-16lbs on a dj dyno and maybe upper 400's on race gas..that is why we had an appt. set up on another dyno


i have tuned quite a few s2ks, none of them have had ANY motor issues due to the tune, 1 had a manifold crack. other than that the 100% STOCK motor'd one has 80,xxx+ miles, and has been boosted for 69,xxx+ miles of its life. i even tuned it on 2 different set ups, one blower & this one turbo.

we even sprayed the stock one, no issues to this day

oh yeah, i do travel to tune as well yea but will you finance haha</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by reactiondc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i highly doubt the tuner knew what plugs the owner bought for the car,its hard for me to blame that on the tuner

the car was hooked up to the dynos wideband and the tuner didnt say anything about an excessive high duty cycle
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any reputable tuner should put new correct plugs in the car and/or tell the customer what plugs they should bring/run

Ask the tuner for the logs. I'm more than happy to provide our customers with internal and laptop logs of dyno pulls. I keep them in dated folders with the same name as the dyno pull RunFile

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alpha &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Any reputable tuner should put new correct plugs in the car and/or tell the customer what plugs they should bring/run

Ask the tuner for the logs. I'm more than happy to provide our customers with internal and laptop logs of dyno pulls. I keep them in dated folders with the same name as the dyno pull RunFile</TD></TR></TABLE>at this point i dont know if the tuner would provide any data from the tune,it seems that a 3rd party has informed him of this thread and he isnt very happy about his tuning ability being called into question

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by reactiondc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">at this point i dont know if the tuner would provide any data from the tune,it seems that a 3rd party has informed him of this thread and he isnt very happy about his tuning ability being called into question </TD></TR></TABLE>

I will be honest. Nor would I. I've never left another tuner's ignition map untouched much the less used it. I'm not saying he did but it's being put out there he either left Tony1's ignition map from ANOTHER CAR untouched or simply added eight degrees throughout the ignition map. If it's true or not? I dont know. It would be nice to see him reply to the post to clear some of this up

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alpha &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I will be honest. Nor would I. I've never left another tuner's ignition map untouched much the less used it. I'm not saying he did but it's being put out there he either left Tony1's ignition map from ANOTHER CAR untouched or simply added eight degrees throughout the ignition map. If it's true or not? I dont know. It would be nice to see him reply to the post to clear some of this up </TD></TR></TABLE>i really dont know why someone told tony he added timing...from what i was told he didnt touch the timing...we can only be sure when we pull the map from the ems and compare,till then i have to assume its the same timing map

 

What you guys are saying about the excess back pressure due to the log manifold.. I am wondering if the if a car was to knock due to this would it be in the higher gears most likely? I still am getting random knocking in 4th and 5th.

 

I do have to apologize for being so harsh on yo bro, i am kinda rough around the edges sometimes i just get a little angry when i see this happen, i know how much money this costs, especially when its done multiple times, plus the moral beating is even worse and i know how it feels to be in question i have had a motor grenade on me, but we later found out why and i cleared myself of it(customer did a valve adjustment and it just wasnt done well) so i know its natural to be defensive, its human nature


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alpha &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Any reputable tuner should put new correct plugs in the car and/or tell the customer what plugs they should bring/run

Ask the tuner for the logs. I'm more than happy to provide our customers with internal and laptop logs of dyno pulls. I keep them in dated folders with the same name as the dyno pull RunFile</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats a very good idea john, i always put fresh plugs in which we have at the shop, and if there is anything i feel questionable, such as mileage, condition, headgasket, oil consumption, or if the customer asks i will compression and leakdown test the motor put the results on the disclaimer/info sheet and i make them sign it that way they know the "health" of thier motor before we hammer it.


Its unclear to me who put the plugs in was it the shop or the customer? even domestics know that bosch plugs are horrible on nitrous/turbo/supercharged motors so i am lost in that one.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drew Peacock &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What you guys are saying about the excess back pressure due to the log manifold.. I am wondering if the if a car was to knock due to this would it be in the higher gears most likely? I still am getting random knocking in 4th and 5th.</TD></TR></TABLE>

could very well be, seeing you guys have 6 speeds you still use 5th for some acceleration use but it is at apoint where what we said will and could be occuring in your motor. There are much more benefits and reasons behind an equal length manifold than just the bling factor and some HP, its the reasoning and design behind which supports why we use them

 

I made 424 @ 9 psi on my s2000 on the full race manifold, but scored my engine due to POS tuner error, because A he never checked my plugs for detonation, and B too much timing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drew Peacock &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What you guys are saying about the excess back pressure due to the log manifold.. I am wondering if the if a car was to knock due to this would it be in the higher gears most likely? I still am getting random knocking in 4th and 5th.</TD></TR></TABLE>


please. go make your own post.

Let me just say, since I was the one recording the dyno tune. this is what "I" saw. The owner of the car went and bought his OWN colder plugs (or what he believed was colder). He bought Boschs (for some reason). The tuner, having no experience with Bosch plugs, only NGK. went with what the customer told him. I specifically remember after the 499whp pull, we pulled and checked the plugs. and there was ZERO signs of detonation. the plugs were all clean (cleanest plugs I've seen in awhile). at this point, the owner also regapped the plugs to about .027-.028.

Now, I spoke with the tuner and he said he was down to show the customer all of his saved info. the tuner was also upset at the owner for not bringing the vehicle back to him after adjusting the valves. He would have retuned it. and said that would make a signficant difference. I don't know if this had been mentioned or not, but after the tune, the owner went to see REACTIONDC2. who then heard a slight miss. after doing a compression test. They realized that no valve adjustment was ever done to the head since it was built and recieved new valvetrain. Which is the reason why #3 cylinder was only putting out 50psi at the time. So a valve adjustment was done and 260miles after the vavle adjustment was done, is when the motor blew up.

I am friends with both the tuner and Zack, the owner. So I am not taking sides . only telling what i know.


-Zol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by reaction360 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


please. go make your own post.

Let me just say, since I was the one recording the dyno tune. this is what "I" saw. The owner of the car went and bought his OWN colder plugs (or what he believed was colder). He bought Boschs (for some reason). The tuner, having no experience with Bosch plugs, only NGK. went with what the customer told him. I specifically remember after the 499whp pull, we pulled and checked the plugs. and there was ZERO signs of detonation. the plugs were all clean (cleanest plugs I've seen in awhile). at this point, the owner also regapped the plugs to about .027-.028.

Now, I spoke with the tuner and he said he was down to show the customer all of his saved info. the tuner was also upset at the owner for not bringing the vehicle back to him after adjusting the valves. He would have retuned it. and said that would make a signficant difference. I don't know if this had been mentioned or not, but after the tune, the owner went to see REACTIONDC2. who then heard a slight miss. after doing a compression test. They realized that no valve adjustment was ever done to the head since it was built and recieved new valvetrain. Which is the reason why #3 cylinder was only putting out 50psi at the time. So a valve adjustment was done and 260miles after the vavle adjustment was done, is when the motor blew up.

I am friends with both the tuner and Zack, the owner. So I am not taking sides . only telling what i know.


-Zol

</TD></TR></TABLE>from what i was told by the owner is...brian(tuner) knew zack couldnt find colder plugs so he just decided to go ahead and tune with the plugs he had...the valve thing is something that is my fault...on initial startup the motor ran flawlessly,we shut it down changed injectors installed the ems and the next day i went to work...owner got his car tuned and then he came over to my house and the car sounded like a subaru at idle...i thought i was hearing things because it ran fine at any rpm over idle though,...thought the motor was hurt on the dyno..checked compression number 3 was low apparently a valve was tight,why it didnt show untill they were nearly done with the tuning process is beyond me,another thing that struck me as odd is...if a car suddenly develops a misfire while you are tuning it why didnt the tuner(brian) shut it down and find the reason instead of continuing?...


Modified by reactiondc2 at 9:22 PM 1/1/2008


Modified by reactiondc2 at 9:23 PM 1/1/2008

 

your right steve, zack did say those were stock heat range. its too bad you werent there for the tune. woulda been better for you to have been there instead of hearing "what everyone else remembers."


-Zol