prahaian

I wanted to see what people were running on their turbo set ups as far as temps go. Water temp and oil temp??

MR.johnson

on the street its always around 199-203 depending on traffic.

prahaian

is that for you water or oil?

BLU CIVIC

i know my water temps didn't get above normal operating temp, but my after two 20 minute sessions my car started to smoke when I came in the paddock. Took it easy the first few laps and drove it hard the last few. No smoke. Was my 1st and last time using Valvoline VR1 10w30. But no oil temp gauge, so can't tell you how hot it was.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

So, what are you trying to do here? Are you looking at specific equipment to get certain chemical temperatures down? or is this more about ambient engine temperatures, cylinder pressure temperatures?

Let's get specific.. I think that'd be a better way to help than to keep it that general. there are several ways to do this for the Circuit.

BLU CIVIC

It also makes sense to know the persons setup also. Believe there is a thread or 20 in the track forum

prahaian

its a stock b18c1 turbonetics 57 63 trim t3/t4 log manifold autowork single 3 core radiator and fan with 1550 cfm with shroud, soon to have a oil cooler. I was running a little hot on the track so I called autoworks and they said to bleed the system again and see what happens. I was running 10w30 mobile one but switched to 15w50 mobile one and 50/50 antifreeze to water and waterwetter only

I made 310 whp with 10 lbs of boost on pump 93

Basically Im trying to get my oil and coolant temps as low as possible so I can run the car harder

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That's true. But not geared specifically towards turbocharged applications and the circuit for Honda B/D/H/K series as much.. its but been done, yes, but rarely discussed. I'd be interested in taking this topic and going with some ideas that have worked (and that haven't) from those that have experience on the circuit. I'm sure there are differences not only in the tracks themselves, but their locations (Buttonwillow short course has some unique characteristics on engines, that say Beaver Run wouldn't)..

Let's focus on the main areas.. Perhaps the OP can then gauge some ideas and alternatives.


1. Oil Temperature control - Use of specific oils to prevent thermal breakdown, oil coolers, trans coolers, etc

2. Water Temperature Control- Let's go beyond the half core vs. full sized core concept. Let's look at types of radiators that fit certain turbocharger setups based upon exhaust manifold choice, wastegate placement, etc. We can even include fans in this..

People can then discuss about what coolant/water/ water wetter combinations they use that work best,

3. Engine cylinder temperature control - (This goes more into tuning, turbocharger used, boost threshold pressures, etc)

4. Ambient air temperature control - Use of vents, ducts, certain hoods, coating and wrapping of certain parts, etc.

5. Safety controls - Use of thermal coverings over water lines, A/C lines, etc, from engine bay heat or other areas especially sensitive to engine bay heat and other anomalies. We can go over what gauges are important in this type of racing other than the standard "A/F" gauge necessities.

6. Intercooler placement and types - we already have a full intercooler section about type and style.. What about placement? use? Intake air temps, etc?

What do you guys think? We can separate the topic by the numbers associated above. 1. oil temp, 2. Water temp, 3. Engine cylinder temps, etc.

That way we can have a full discussion ..

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well, now you're looking at some things here in which simply bleeding the system isn't going to help a lot, unless there was something wrong to begin with. IMHO , this seems more to run in line with what you're running for cooling fans, thermostat (yes , please run one) and the content of your radiator than anything else. In addition, remember this.. the higher your oil temperatures within the engine, the higher water temps will be as well, so its best to take that into account.

Depending upon the layout of the track, one way over another, your going to run "hotter" than you would on a freeway "pull" or anything to that effect. Plan for water temperatures to run anywhere from 201F (for the warmup laps) to about 210F for these sessions. Both NA and turbocharged applications can reach these levels, but the real difference I've noticed between the two was the rate in which these water temperatures increase, and again, that has a lot to do with not only your radiator equipment and fluids, but your oil as well..

Lower opening thermostats help a little, but not a full-time solution because if the radiator can't exchange the warmer water for the cooler water (even without a thermostat) , then that looks to be more an air access problem, or a radiator design issue. Just because it has "triple core" doesn't mean its the best design over a "dual core" if the core itself doesn't hold enough fluid and can't exchange heat well. (For you computer nerds like me, its like an Intel I5 Core Duo vs. an AMD X6 core processors; sure the AMDs have more cores than the Intel, but they still run relatively hotter than the Intel design, and process at damn near the same speeds.. They both work, but if you case isn't made to vent more, you could run into a problem..)

So. I'd check the following areas regarding your radiator

1. What kind of coolant are you using, if at all?
2. If you are using coolant? what kind? what additional additives are you using?
3. what is the capacity of the radiator itself? I found that good quality half-core setups from Koyo run over 2 gallons of fluid in it, so that the water can exchange rapidly throughout the engine.

After that let's look into how much air that radiator is accessing.
Getting direct air to the radiator is really essential for this kind of racing as it is, and gets really tough when you have a big obstruction like a huge intercooler blocking the way. The type of intercooler you have may not be allowing enough air to access the radiator based upon the front end you have. (Garrett cores are known "air hogs"..

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Guess he figured it out... This could have been a good discussion for a lot of peoples. .. oh well..

rvn2svn

I can't add anything useful right now to this thread. But... In a few months I'd be happy to post a few 10-20 min vids of track time at Gingerman with a datalog from both an n/a k swapped civic and a B16 turbo civic.

Does anyone have any datalogs for a 10-20 min session?

BLU CIVIC

wish i did, but can post how my car was set-up later

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Turbo civic would be the more useful one.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the bigger issue everyone overlooks is trans temps. someone datalogged their trans temp on a turbo h22 scca car and fluid temps were well over 300F... which is way above the stable operating temperature of the fluid, causing rapid fluid breakdown and ultimately transmission wear and damage.

coolant temps depend on power levels, rpm range, and how the car is driven. also depends on radiator size, design (half or full core), fan capacity, coolant composition, fan on/off temp, thermostat open temp, etc. expect them to be elevated during hard driving

oil temps will also be high if no oil cooler is used.

rvn2svn

Here's a link to the Trans cooler wantboost is talking about... Pretty solid setup.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...707&styleid=14

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

So to keep this organized, let' use this as Topic 1. Oil Control

The write up is there, let's now discuss actual applications of the use of this device.

From what I've noticed over the years, is that unlike other platforms, Honda B and K series engines (those designed specifically for circuit racing and some Enduro racing) rely heavily on the use of specific oils to do their job of cooling, instead of transmission and (in some cases) oil coolers. Mainly because most applications that use these are either Forced Induced (sans Nitrous) or higher displacement engine applications (or both) in which the oil used just doesn't do the job (by way of coverage of bearings, turbo, cylinder head(s), etc) without some sort of carbonized breakdown.

When adding a turbocharger, however, in some cases, the game changes. Honda transmissions (especially the B-series) tend to be a bit more robust for utilization of their transmission oils than most platforms. Since most people use turbocharging for Drag racing, none are never configured or used. Since those that do run on the circuit are NA, again, few, if any are ever used. Even with a turbocharged Circuit application, we don't use them as much because we mainly use them for attack or HPDE, in which run times for them tend to be in the 20-40 minute range; which depending upon the gear oil used, may be good enough to use without the need of one as well. Enduro on the other hand, well, that's a different animal.

Wantboost, are you thinking from your experience the need of one as an additional safety measure for HPDE? or more of a requirement for other Enduro?

Think about it.. 90% of the turbocharged Honda applications don't keep the higher temperatures that the gear oil maintained to need one.. But.. I could see it as a precaution.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

air cooling PCs is so old school

we even had temp issues with our 600rwhp c6 z06 and it's a dedicated prepped track car, even trans temp issues with a diff and trans cooler... we had to to to larger coolers for both and we got a stage 5 RPM TR6060, having the whole gearset REM polished dropped temps by 75F alone.

it's relatively easy to manage oil and coolant temps compared o trans temps, regardless of what fluid you use.. anything over 200ish is death to even the most advanced synthetic fluids. I have datalogs from that car somewhere.. the funniest one is when Andy Pilgrim drove it at track attack.. he got our front AND rear Brembo GTs over 1600F (super aggressive pads, rotors have seen a year of use and by midyear we'll need a new set but it looks like Stoptech or AP Racing is giving us a big prototype kit to test this year) but keep in mind this was 160+ on the straights (torque is so much fun, even though we kill slicks quick)

so regardless of platform, track use is hard on everything regardless of what modifications have been done.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

So...... (back to focus here) you're saying you're seeing this more of an added protection measure dependent on the engine platform? I'm looking specifically at the more popular Honda B-series / K-series transmission platforms for higher abuse racing.

rvn2svn

I've run the same b16a trans with itr diff for the past 5 years . 10-20 track days each year. I've never had any transmission issues ( was on a b16a with maybe 180 crank hp). I've exclusively run pennzoil synchromesh. It's advertised as being ok up to 300 F. I do not plan to add a trans cooler now that its turbo ( unknown hp / tq, not dynod yet). I may try to log my trans temp though, just to see how high it gets.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

180 crank hp won't stress the drivetrain like a turbo will, the increased heat production heatsoaks almost everything underhood, especially if airflow into the engine bay is limited

Mac, yes. it's all about protecting your investment... adding fluid coolers is a relatively cheap proposal when compared to the cost of a built motor, the turbo setup, tuning costs, etc. like I previously said, controlling oil and coolant temps is a fairly straightforward and easy procedure (if you know what you're doing)

every track cars weak link is the transmission, regardless of platform. especially when you're multiplying the power output. with Honda based platforms no readymade solution is available for cooling/filtering transmission fluid so it requires a totally custom approach.

it's relatively simple and good insurance, much more so for those who have upgraded transmission components (gearsets, dog boxes, etc) when you look at the cost of a dogbox transmission (up to 25,000 dollars depending on company) or those who have upgraded synchros, polished gearsets

aftermarket close ratio gears and such, spending a few hundred dollars and a few hours to add a transmission cooling system is seriously cheap insurance.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Understood.. However, I'm a bit bit curious as to the proposed logic as to how power output itself from a turbocharger contributes to the need of the cooler, when I'm thinking higher sustained rpm use would be more of a factor..

Any proposed ways you think to incorporate a trans-cooler in the B-series transmission without it costing as much as the car/setup/driver/ insurance setup alone?

I'm sure the Setrab / Earl's could work.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

more power output and torque means more twisting force and strain on transmission components

as far as heat output, it's more about the turbo manifold, turbine housing, and downpipe radiating 1800F heat into the engine bay, we've all seen someone melt something that was too close


it really is a very simple setup, use the stock fill and drain plugs as in and out, use a tilton scavenge pump to move the fluid... have an inline filter pre-pump to filter debris out of the fluid, from the pump to a front or fender mount cooler then back to the trans

I can do this for 250 or less but I know where to find even the nicest of setrab coolers for gas money lol

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

this would allow you to run a proper trans temp gauge, you could activate the pump many ways as well

a standard switch (although if you forget to turn it on... oops)
thermoswitch that monitors trans temps then grounds a relay (think stock fan switch)
thermoswitch that feeds to your ecu, which then turns the pump on or off based on users presets

I'm weird about knowing fluid is actually being pumped through cooling circuits, a temp gauge alone won't tell you if the pump works, so I like to mount a pressure adjustable Hobbs switch after the pump that activates a small red led either put in the gauge face or next to it, this way I know the pump is running and outputting a safe minimum pressure.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Why not just a mechanical thermoswitch like on a Mocal sandwich? why bother with the ECU? just use a thermometer to monitor and it bypasses when needed.

You're asking the ECU to try and do a helluva a lot more than necessary.