well after my tune running perfect the past few days got to the track and everything just went wrong. first pass car was super lazy to get going afr where ok 1-2 then in 3-4th ran pig rich 10:1 afrs . got to the pits pulled some fuel checked the plugs. went back for another run and two step stopped working at the line so was hitting two step limit the whole way down, went back to pits turned 2 step off. then speedo went all out of wack so was hitting speed cut. so got back to pits again then turned speed limit off and added some timing and went 14 flat was the fastest pass i could get out of it but still not runing right afr wise. why would the car go from running so perfect to running so different as far as the air fuel goes i know my speed sensor and two step is a whole other issue. just dumb founded.

 

No offense but after watching this thread for awhile and reading through it, you need to take your car to a professional tuner before you do irreversible damage to your engine. It's pretty obvious to me and anyone else who has been doing this for a long time that you have very little idea of what you're actually doing. If you don't actually get a real tune you'll be wondering why your engine popped, or you washed out your rings, or you spun a bearing due to fuel contaminating the oil, etc. You're really pushing your luck beating on it. The tune is the most important part of any setup.

 

first of all i dont see how your statement about a proper tune is valid. the car was running great thats the only reason i took it to the track timg has been kept .75 degrees per lb aqnd afrs 12.5 before 9psi and 12.0 after to 12.9psi so i dont see how me asking why after driving up to the track would my tune be so rich. i would think the extra load would actully lean it out. so i do see how im going to pop my motor theres a reason i only did 4 runs and only 2 where a full pass and yes im not stupid i know to change the oil after the car has been runing rich.

 

Aradin is right though, I agree with him. You do know more than a lot of people, but it is pretty obvious you have a LOT to learn about tuning before doing anything serious like drag racing.
the math you're using is an average for a basemap, not for tuning. you're altering ignition timing blindly. and the fact you dont know why afr's are changing so much explains to the rest of us that you dont quite understand how to tweak everything properly especially all the compensation tables.
and by the way, 12.0 afr at 13psi is too lean if you dont know with absolute certainty that all your ignition points and compensations are 110% absolutely spot on perfect.

fix your speedo issue, get a professional tune, and if you want to toy around with the tune just take the one done by the tuner and play around a little. but NOT at the track!

and to answer your question, the afr's went all out of wack because your timing tables are too far off from ideal, and I'm sure all the compensations are all out of wack as well. everything affects everything. until you know a whole lot more about tuning, expect to learn that changing 1 single thing will typically throw EVERYTHING back out of wack again.

dont take any of this as insults from any of us. we're not trying to make you feel bad, we're trying to give you proper advice before its too late. take it as a learning experience. just try to learn before you're forced to learn the hard way.

 

I think he gave up, the turbo setup is for sale in the marketplace

 

Or he blew it up. Sucks for him either way. Car would have had plenty of potential and the power he was looking for if he just shelled out another $400 or so for a professional tune. I wasn't trying to be a dick before but some things are just better left in the hands of professionals especially when a person doesn't have the time or equipment to learn how to do it yourself properly. It's all a learning experience. I've been tuning for 5 years now and I'm still learning.

 

posted up the kit because a friend will sell me his k24/k20 turbo set up for that price and trade me swap for swap. but no i found the people. i tuned the car on shell v power got low on gas and only gas station near the strip was ampm so i pulled another 2 degrees out for the crappyer fuel and finally ran it out of the car today refueled with v power and up loaded old tune and everything was spot on. also since i am street tunning i was not able to take 3rd or 4th to red line as i run a ls trans and didnt want to be doing 100+ out around the orchards on the out side of town. u see where you guys are coming from. i know 12:1 sounds lean but car likes it it acts choked out when at 11.5 to 11 i dont exspect to make crazy power on my own tune just trying to get a decent daily pump tune in the car. taking the car to LDL for a e85 tune in a month or so. if cant get in with them then i will be seeing Redzone as they tuned my last b20b non v all motor made 186 on a 100 degree day. thanks for the input also getting a buddy to drive the car as i tune it tonight to take back to the track in Sacramento tomarrow night .

 

Wow.... Just... Wow..

 

ok

 

also havent went to get a pro tune yet cause the ones i have talked to wont tune it over 10psi on pump so thats why im doing my own pump tune. as the motor is 9.6:1 static and they dont seem to get the cams bleed alot of comp off. so there scared that the sleeves will give out.

 

Yeah. That's about the extent of it. You, I, and others were TRYING to be nice and help this guy along but none of it is sinking in because it's not what he wants to hear. I've been messing with Hondas for over 10 years now and it honestly pains me that the community is coming to this. People not doing things right and then getting frustrated because of their own mistakes and stupidity. The following of these cars is going to slowly shrink because the people who actually know things are too jaded to even bother to explain an idea or concept to the newcomers because of all of the constant bullshit they put up with. On top of that, as is this generation of humans, all the newcomers want instant gratification. They don't want to put in the legwork and do the hours of research and hands on learning that most of us have done. The alternative to that is actually paying someone who knows what they're doing to do the things that said newcomer cannot do but in the days of "turbo kits" that run $600, what's the point in paying someone $1000+ for labor and $400ish for a real tune? Sigh........ /rant.


If your friend trades you his K series for your B series, "swap for swap", he's a moron. The amount of dumb things in this post literally makes my head hurt. I was trying to be nice before but obviously none of what any of us are saying is sinking in which is the same reason you're not getting very many responses anymore because you seem to think you know better than the rest of us that have been doing this for years and years.
And what "pro tuner" did you talk to exactly? Because whoever it is clearly has no idea what they're doing. 9.6:1 static is NOTHING. That's the low end of the bar for a turbo motor these days. 10psi is also irrelevant. Forget boost pressure as a measure of anything aside from manifold pressure. Boost pressure isn't what breaks parts. It's the power made at the boost pressure. 10psi on a little 14b is going to be much less potent than say 10psi on a 6262. The sleeve thing is partially correct, but not for the reasons you listed. B20s have inherently weak sleeves, yes. Which is why it's a dumb thing to build a stock sleeve B20. Either way, none of the things you said should stop any tuner who knows what they're doing from tuning the car.


Just for reference, I have a completely stock F20B in my personal car that is 11:1 compression from the factory, with much bigger cams that have more overlap AND a less efficient turbo setup than yours and you know how much trouble I had tuning it? None. Not a bit. Took me 4 passes to get it sorted. Runs like a dream. Why? Because I know what I'm doing. Because 5 years ago when I was first getting into the turbo scene I listened to what the OGs were telling me and did my own research and legwork. If I was too lazy to do all that, I would have just paid someone who knew what they were doing to sort it out. Which is exactly what you should do if you're not going to listen to what people are telling you. I, along with the others in this thread, have been trying to give you advice and help you out. That's all. You keep complaining that the car isn't running right, it's because of the tune. Get it done right or don't be surprised when it blows up. The end.

 

I've been tuning for almost 15 years now, 10 years professionally, and I still learn things with almost every car I tune

 

i dont disagree with what you guys are saying but why am i going to take a car with a few problems to a tunner thats 3-4hrs away from me when a tune is not going to fix the problems ive had lately. thats why the tune i have made my self is very conserative its only so i can make sure i have no blow out problems no exhaust or boost leaks or any other issues before i take it to anyone. just like last night drove it to sac to pick up my new gsr trans and found the turbo is leaking exhaust where the center section bolts to the turbine housing. bolts are tight so what would cause this to happen out of the blue. car has started to be come more laggy to build boost talking even 1-7 psi til 5-6k with 50-70% throttle only cause thats the only way it want to get going. leak doesnt seem to be super big as its only in some areas mainly all on the top half of the turbo not on the bottom side. this is reason i have yet to get a pro tune. and i understand psi is just a restriction and every turbocharger air flow/lbs a min is different at ever psi from one turbo to the next. im just saying what they have told me they dont want to go over 10 psi from my 61mm garrett aka old school gt35 hybrid cause of the dynamic compression the engine will have in the chamber and the air flow the engine will be taking at that pressure.

 

also if that way the case why would i have went and pulled the turbo and manifold off the car to address the waste gate tube problem causing my over boost if i was not "letting it sink in" why did i change my spark plugs down to 7's when both tuners ive talked to said run 6s with my low compression why did i buy the 7's you guy told me to and run the gap you told me too if im not letting it "sink in" ive done and listen to everything you guys have said to me other then getting a pro tune. and my previous post say to why i havent. when it comes to trading for the k swap how is he being dumd for that. his set up is all stock just a k20a2 head on a k24a4 block all stock all over a 100k miles just slapped a new hg on when he changed heads. stock axles stock clutch stock ep3 trans. so dont see how that is. but i have decided to keep my set up as i blow his doors off on a 40-100 roll with my current problems so im stay with what ive always done and see this to the end.

 

the leaky turbo sounds like a bad turbo, as if the housings dont fit together properly.

extra retarded timing increases exhaust temp and can burn valves, and potentially burn the turbo too, but I doubt it. probably just an issue with the turbo itsself

as for the tuner, it sounds like you should try finding a different tuner. my dynamic compression is about 16:1 when compensating for my boost level and VE, and I run Mobil 93 octane pump gas with no issue. 9.7:1 static compression with 11.5psi of boost, and over 100% VE in peak torque area, in case anyone was wondering.
and the plug heat range, stock is 5 or 6 depending on weather conditions. for a tuner to recommend a stock plug in a turbo honda is pretty stupid to me, and tells me they probably shouldnt be tuning, especially if they say they can't tune over 10psi.

 

so i bench tested the tail waste gate and measured the spring and it is a small green. so i put 10psi of shop air to the bottom port and left the top port vented. valve would not open. felt and heard all the shop air coming out the top port. so i take this news as the diaphram must have a whole in it? i turned the shop air up to 30psi and it still wouldnt open yet when that gate was on the car it would hold boost at 15.3psi. i have also tried using my intake manifold as my boost source and it jumps to 20psi then when im only running 14.4 on my friends cheap *** gate. drove the car to sacermento tonight 30mins later made my first pass after driving 2 hours and pulled a 13.155 with a 1.99 60ft. heres the top 4 passes.

 

if air is passing from the bottom port to the top port, then yes the diaphragm must have a leak.
BUT, you can't test wg opening pressure just by putting pressure to the bottom port. for it to function properly it needs to also have exhaust pressure on the actual valve. it uses the combination of exhaust pressure on the valve AND boost pressure in the bottom port to open at the correct pressure, and is also the reason why they say the pressure ratings of each spring are "average" because exhaust pressures vs boost pressures can vary a bit.

 

thats what i figured. waiting for a buddy to see what hes doing for his turbo set up as i mite just sell him mine for a low price and get a 44mm precision as have found my over boost issues being the gate.

so any input as to why my set up wants to run so much more boost when i moved the vacuum line to the intake as shodan said.

 

Simple pressure drop...By the time air goes through your intercooler/piping there is less "boost" in your IM then say directly after your turbo outlet.
Depending on your intercooler/piping this can very a few psi

I.e. a good intercooler will give 1 PSI drop, a bad EBAY unit could give 5 PSI or more

so when using the turbo outlet as a boost source for your wastegate it will see more pressue and react quicker then if you go off your intake manifold.

Sounds like your wastegate is not working properly either, so its not a very good baseline. Get a wastegate that works properly with the correct spring (dont recall if your using boost controller or not) for your goals

Most tuners will agree with shodan and recomend using teh IM as the boost source, thats the boost your engine will see which is not always the same as say whats in your compressor cover

 

ya im using a buddys back up gate. waiting to see if he gets my tial for like 50 off me and ill order a 44mm instead of fixing my 38mm. not using the ebc as it jumps the boost to high for my map sensor and i hit boost cut.

 

nice 44mm is the way to go. Only bummer is you need to change your flange

 

ive already done it once.

 

whats the difference on these to ways to hook up a 3 port ebc. will one have a faster spool time.

 

small update if it matters to anyone new 38mm tail diaphram was installed running the ebc as pictured above. made it much nice to tune. got tune squared away.

went 13.1 two weeks ago track sucked could launch harder then 5800rpm.

going to rent dyno once the weather here clears up so i can tune timing hope to have numbers soon and will post in the ls-t page. thanks for everyones help.