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Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
I'm certain neither of us were "angry"..surely not me. I'm just trying to grasp the "how" of it. One proven (time and time again) manifold is scrutinized by "theory' (that happen to cost $700) while one that looks like a brick w/ a wastegate port gets a "hey what about this option"...that happens to be $150...with no mention of flow. It just seems like comparing apples to walnuts with the largest factor being $$; while the debate was on flow instead of dollars? Do you see what I'm saying there? The logic of it just seemed confusing. Anyway, I'm all for a V2 cast log or Inline Pro log, work w/ them everyday. I'm ALL for a mini ram as an "all around winner". I do not like tubular/weld el logs...they too are purely a compromise option...much like the Spa pictured. Anywho...
Friend this debate was never about flow.It wasnt even spa vs mini ram too. Im sure that the mini ram will do 450whp , but wasnt sure if the spa will manage to hit 450whp without problems.
All this since i read online people was happy in the states with the spa top mount and off course because it was 1/6 of the price and because i was in a search for results for this manifold.
I didnt make this thread as "what is better". I hate the T T dual T logs really since the the pulse eventualy finds the exit after hitting a wall.But at the end everything works.
Hehe. C'mon. I know English isn't your 1st language, but there's a difference between angry, and annoyed. I was the latter. In the end, this isn't my project, but you need to have the information correct first before you can just judge people's input that you're being given. Especially if you're looking for feedback and input from others. It is the internet, after all, but in the end, we know, just like you, that your opinion is what's going to matter in the end.
Secondly, I think you're also misconstruing the idea that cylinder #3 is always the lean on in the firing order, and that the exhaust manifold design of the mini-ram exacerbates that lean condition. It does not.. We're telling you this from its use, and not what you think is the case on paper. Just so we're clear; your preference of how you design your manifold is absolutely justified, being that its not how you like it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the mini-ram design should be "thrown in the trash", simply because you don't like it.
Hell, I can't stand top-mounted manifolds for street use. But that doesn't mean the design itself is garbage. It's that the design doesn't fit the purposethat many users intend to use it for. But I won't throw it in the trash, or get overly sensitive of it. It does have its purpose, as does the Mini-ram. I find it ironic that you're trying to get something to fit your purpose, the mini-ram can deliver that purpose, (from verified testimony), and that you're intent on using these other systems, that have many of their own faults, but want to just state immediately that..it's trash. That's just throwing ideas back in one's face. If you don't like it, you can say simply that it's not your speed, it's too expensive to get in Europe even if you did like it, and move on. We're all fine with that, really.
You don't like the design of the Mini-ram. Ok. It's over. But then, to be fair, please be willing be just as open to other ideas...Just face it, you're not really going to "sell" us on this SPA right now as it stands.
So, with that, in an effort to try and continue some harmony, Why don't we all just get away from discussions of either manifold or its design, if it's getting sensitive to people, and try something else...... Or don't... We know its up to you to make the decision, and we have nothing personally invested here.
My final words about mini ram. The manifold/piston/turbo/suspension what ever "works" is very loosely used. EVERYTHING works.
It then comes down on price to performance. i never said the mini ram is for trash. i copy what i said:
This super short unequal length manifolds are not uncommon on the oem world but i dont thing any oem car will hit 500-600 to the wheels on 9500 rpm.
That manifold is so wrong for our engines really. Whould i use it? Yes on a GTX3576 after i measure the AFR on those unhappy cylinders and fix the map accordingly.
On a 7000 rpm 2.0 ABF VW yes i would use it without too much hassle too. But not on our engines.Unless i was on super conservative tune asking for like 350whp with b16 low
exhaust overlap cams.And i would use it if it was t3 or t4 divided pulses also, but not like this (im refering here to 500whp the other guy did reving to 9000 with a hunter turbo.
)
I take your word about it not craping the AFRs compared to other manifolds ok. I can totally understand why you dont like full ramhorns too much and why you dislike top mounts (for the average joe whp i guess).
Every manifold has its flaws.On the full ramhorns the exhaust pulse hits a wall the time the valve opens and the gass travels through a curve for 90% of the manifold.Top mounts overextend the pulses adding very big volume
for a very good merge collector alltho im not sure how much scavenging even helps untill like 8500 rpm...If it wasnt the pulse organisation better noone would ever run a top mount.
Strangely enough my ghetto dual-Y manifold is like 25" long and spools the twin scroll manifold and spools the evo X turbo VERY quickly. 1 psi by 2100 rpm. Would a 86 a/r gt2860rs build 1psi by 2100rpm on a regular top mount on a b16?
Am i happy from my many? Yes. I counldnt believe how well the theory was correct and wrong at the same time. Its still a SUPER long top mount right?
Is it the best mani? Dear god no.
Is it the best bang for your buck if you want to test if "divided setup" works? Maybe.
Would i buy a 25" dual Y manifold for 700$ to use it on a 38lbs/min turbo? No.
Right now im ditching the spa mani idea because the guy sold it and never told me what happened...I will try to track down a dyno plot altho the guy that go it will do exactly what i would...Use it later hahaha.
Now im planing on doing 84x87 with the turbo setup i have now for at least 6 months since the sleeving+sleeves will be like extra 1000 euros.
Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
I guess we will have results on this.
A friend is doing a B16 CRX turbo and he asked for a short runner lower cost manifold for 350-400whp.Well you know since i never forget...I ordered it for him.It happened to be on sale on turbozentrum (160 euros!)
He has a 7blade billet 58/60 HX35 holset so it will be easy i guess.
Cast quality looks good.
Walls have nice width consistency.
Ports are big and alltho from out side the first curve looks steep.Its not at all.All curves inside and outside are good.
Weight is like 4-5 kilos. Felt light if you ask me and it looks it will flow a LOT.
Images:
Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
Well as i said its done.
Installed on a friends crx paired with a HX35 mfs (58/60 12cm knife endged divided).
It willbe using both external and internal wastegate. I doctored an efr actuator for it.
Considering:
1) Its a CRX crazy small bay
2)HX35 have huge compressor housing
It went well.If you are considering this combo you will need blanket or ceramic coqating on the turbine housing since it sits very close to the hood hook.
It will be going on a dyno soon.(ill also do a big update on my build thread)
Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
Expect a lot of lag with a non-firing order, large-volume-runner manifold, big wheel HX35 on a B16. It will live in the 6 - 9k range only (hope you guys are going to be happy with that)
Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
Originally Posted by extremeracer
Expect a lot of lag with a non-firing order, large-volume-runner manifold, big wheel HX35 on a B16. It will live in the 6 - 9k range only (hope you guys are going to be happy with that)
The manifold is not that big if you see it in person its the closest there is to a 48mm fabed mini ram. I think my friend hit boost cut (0.5bar) on 4th gear at like 5000 on some quick spool testing.
Its still on a basemap so we cant test properly yet. Also as you seen in person 12cm is really small on the inside. It has total inner volume of both volutes something around from 70 to maybe 75 a/r on T3 standards. It deffinately isnt total volute of T3 0.83 a/r because of the divider is occupying space. Id say it closer to the garretts T3 .63 compared to t3 .82. We probably do a BB fill test later this year when we will take it apart for a divided manifold ill make for him. I have a T3 63 housing somewere .
He will forge the engine soon so the setup was from the begining on the big side. He also bought both the manifold and the holset both on sale prices for a total of ~750 euros for both so it was a price leaning buy but im very sure he will be happy with it later when hell go
for like 500whp.
Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
Quick update on the spa crx:
b16 on gsr cams
spa bottom mount t3 open
58/60 billet holset 12cm knife edged t3 divided flange
Spool 0.55 bar / 8 psi by 4500 rpm !!
11-24-2017, 10:06 AM
Re: SPA BOTTOM Mount Exhaust Manifold - Opinions & Suggestions
