Need Insight on Stock boost Type R (Engine failure)
10-22-2007, 10:49 PM
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Need Insight on Stock boost Type R (Engine failure)
Stock engine boosted type R with peak boost kit. Engine managment Hondata s300 with GM boost controller. Fresh HG with ARP studs.
We were tuning tonight up to 12 psi using stock map sensor. Timing was very conservative along with proper afr's. We were trying to get the GM selonoid to work with the 6.5 psi spring in the wg...but the dam thing wouldnt let us boost anything below 12 psi. So i do not know whats up with that....and duty cycle was set at 0% and boost cut was set at 12 psi and was working properly when we were trying to boost lower.
Well we were making a 3rd gear pull and all sudden his top rad hose pops off the block along with the heater hose on the back...engine dies and cuts off...All his coolant was gone in a flash. I pulled the plugs (ngk 7's), they were healthy as hell but cylinder 4 was filled with water...head gasket blew. IAT was around 100 degrees, engine coolant temp around 195, and afr's at 11's when boosting.
I aslo looked at the top of the pistons and they look like this....
Pistons looked perfectly fine, just it has a cicular spot that was super clean...
We are going to pull the head of course...but just want some insight of what coulda caused the hg to blow and what other possible damage to expect (cracked sleeved). HG was torqued down to spec and prep very carefully, so im clueless....
Only thing i can think of, it had a shock of coolant loss and overheated...
We were tuning tonight up to 12 psi using stock map sensor. Timing was very conservative along with proper afr's. We were trying to get the GM selonoid to work with the 6.5 psi spring in the wg...but the dam thing wouldnt let us boost anything below 12 psi. So i do not know whats up with that....and duty cycle was set at 0% and boost cut was set at 12 psi and was working properly when we were trying to boost lower.
Well we were making a 3rd gear pull and all sudden his top rad hose pops off the block along with the heater hose on the back...engine dies and cuts off...All his coolant was gone in a flash. I pulled the plugs (ngk 7's), they were healthy as hell but cylinder 4 was filled with water...head gasket blew. IAT was around 100 degrees, engine coolant temp around 195, and afr's at 11's when boosting.
I aslo looked at the top of the pistons and they look like this....
Pistons looked perfectly fine, just it has a cicular spot that was super clean...
We are going to pull the head of course...but just want some insight of what coulda caused the hg to blow and what other possible damage to expect (cracked sleeved). HG was torqued down to spec and prep very carefully, so im clueless....
Only thing i can think of, it had a shock of coolant loss and overheated...
10-23-2007, 02:42 AM
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Re: Need Insight on Stock boost Type R (iBrandon)
how exactly can u tune it to 12 psi on the stock map sensor if it wont read over 11? 
and by doing so u also don´t have the boost cut working.
What turbo is it running and what wg? u r seeing a lot of boost creep, get a bigger spring to see if it helps a bit or maybe a better vaccum source, otherwise u´ll need a bigger wg or run more boost.
and by doing so u also don´t have the boost cut working.What turbo is it running and what wg? u r seeing a lot of boost creep, get a bigger spring to see if it helps a bit or maybe a better vaccum source, otherwise u´ll need a bigger wg or run more boost.
10-23-2007, 05:50 AM
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Re: Need Insight on Stock boost Type R (street dream gsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by street dream gsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">12 psi on a stock type r is asking for it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, not really.
12psi on the stock MAP sensor is what's asking for it.
What probably caused the HG to blow was that you were spiking well over 12psi, the MAP sensor couldn't read it so it couldn't cut the ignition for boost cut, nor did it have an available cell for it so basically it was still using the 8-11psi interpolation timing for whatever boost you were making above that.
MAP sensors are cheap dude, get a bigger one.
No, not really.
12psi on the stock MAP sensor is what's asking for it.
What probably caused the HG to blow was that you were spiking well over 12psi, the MAP sensor couldn't read it so it couldn't cut the ignition for boost cut, nor did it have an available cell for it so basically it was still using the 8-11psi interpolation timing for whatever boost you were making above that.
MAP sensors are cheap dude, get a bigger one.
10-23-2007, 06:17 AM
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unless it was bad why did you replace the head gasket and head bolts? why fix what isnt broken.
did you try without the solenoid in the vacuum line and see what the wastegate itself would hold? the red light should have gone off when it wouldn't hold boost low enough for the map sensor to properly read and stopped attempting to tune the car.
what brand head gasket did you use?
did you try without the solenoid in the vacuum line and see what the wastegate itself would hold? the red light should have gone off when it wouldn't hold boost low enough for the map sensor to properly read and stopped attempting to tune the car.
what brand head gasket did you use?
10-23-2007, 06:38 AM
#7
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Re: (mike@synapse motorsport)
i hope u were not relying on datalogging the boost to check the psi? cuz if u were, it can only see roughly 11 psi even though the car is boosting way higher. did u have a boost guage in the car?
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10-23-2007, 06:38 AM
#8
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Re: (mike@synapse motorsport)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">unless it was bad why did you replace the head gasket and head bolts? why fix what isnt broken.
did you try without the solenoid in the vacuum line and see what the wastegate itself would hold? the red light should have gone off when it wouldn't hold boost low enough for the map sensor to properly read and stopped attempting to tune the car.
what brand head gasket did you use?</TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed 100%
did you try without the solenoid in the vacuum line and see what the wastegate itself would hold? the red light should have gone off when it wouldn't hold boost low enough for the map sensor to properly read and stopped attempting to tune the car.
what brand head gasket did you use?</TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed 100%
10-23-2007, 02:27 PM
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Re: (boosted k20)
Yes we tried the wastegate spring only and it boosted only 6.5...ran perfect...then we tryed to use the gm selenoid and couldnt get that thing to hold boost at all...and we tryed all kinds of setting. We were using my gm selonoid and hondata ecu that came off my car. And i was able to control boost perfectly fine up to 28 psi on my integra.
The owner replaced the hg as a small safety precaution so it wouldnt lift. As for the stock map sensor, he wanted to use it for now and switch over later. I did not know that the boost cut cant read on the edge of the map sensor...i do now. Funny how the boost map scales out to 12 psi instead of 11. One would think u could use that part of the map.
More then likely it did spike over and past the maps range. So what does the ecu read if its outside of its range?? Be nice if there was an automatic Map cut when you go outside the bounds of the map senor...instead of reading out in space forever reading god only knows what values.
The car was running really healthy too up to 8 psi...next time we are going to use a dam manual boost controller...not risking the gm selonoid on low boost again...
I shoulda known better that boost controller wouldnt work at that low psi, instead of pushing the stock map sensors limit to find the boost range of that controller.
The owner replaced the hg as a small safety precaution so it wouldnt lift. As for the stock map sensor, he wanted to use it for now and switch over later. I did not know that the boost cut cant read on the edge of the map sensor...i do now. Funny how the boost map scales out to 12 psi instead of 11. One would think u could use that part of the map.
More then likely it did spike over and past the maps range. So what does the ecu read if its outside of its range?? Be nice if there was an automatic Map cut when you go outside the bounds of the map senor...instead of reading out in space forever reading god only knows what values.
The car was running really healthy too up to 8 psi...next time we are going to use a dam manual boost controller...not risking the gm selonoid on low boost again...
I shoulda known better that boost controller wouldnt work at that low psi, instead of pushing the stock map sensors limit to find the boost range of that controller.
10-23-2007, 02:41 PM
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Re: Need Insight on Stock boost Type R (iBrandon)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iBrandon »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We were tuning tonight up to 12 psi using stock map sensor.</TD></TR></TABLE>
nuff said. get a 3 bar rebuild and try again.
with a map that can only read to 11.2 psi, and you are tuning to 12, how do you expect to have boost cut?
We were tuning tonight up to 12 psi using stock map sensor.</TD></TR></TABLE>
nuff said. get a 3 bar rebuild and try again.
with a map that can only read to 11.2 psi, and you are tuning to 12, how do you expect to have boost cut?
10-23-2007, 02:58 PM
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Re: (iBrandon)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iBrandon »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes we tried the wastegate spring only and it boosted only 6.5...ran perfect...then we tryed to use the gm selenoid and couldnt get that thing to hold boost at all...and we tryed all kinds of setting. We were using my gm selonoid and hondata ecu that came off my car. And i was able to control boost perfectly fine up to 28 psi on my integra.
The owner replaced the hg as a small safety precaution so it wouldnt lift. As for the stock map sensor, he wanted to use it for now and switch over later. I did not know that the boost cut cant read on the edge of the map sensor...i do now. Funny how the boost map scales out to 12 psi instead of 11. One would think u could use that part of the map.
More then likely it did spike over and past the maps range. So what does the ecu read if its outside of its range?? Be nice if there was an automatic Map cut when you go outside the bounds of the map senor...instead of reading out in space forever reading god only knows what values.
The car was running really healthy too up to 8 psi...next time we are going to use a dam manual boost controller...not risking the gm selonoid on low boost again...
I shoulda known better that boost controller wouldnt work at that low psi, instead of pushing the stock map sensors limit to find the boost range of that controller.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh boy
The owner replaced the hg as a small safety precaution so it wouldnt lift. As for the stock map sensor, he wanted to use it for now and switch over later. I did not know that the boost cut cant read on the edge of the map sensor...i do now. Funny how the boost map scales out to 12 psi instead of 11. One would think u could use that part of the map.
More then likely it did spike over and past the maps range. So what does the ecu read if its outside of its range?? Be nice if there was an automatic Map cut when you go outside the bounds of the map senor...instead of reading out in space forever reading god only knows what values.
The car was running really healthy too up to 8 psi...next time we are going to use a dam manual boost controller...not risking the gm selonoid on low boost again...
I shoulda known better that boost controller wouldnt work at that low psi, instead of pushing the stock map sensors limit to find the boost range of that controller.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh boy
10-23-2007, 03:06 PM
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Re: (jewjew bean)
Enough to blow the head gasket and blow off two coolant hoses...hopefully internals and sleeves are fine and just a hg replacement is needed. But im expecting the worst...cracked sleeve...we will see...
10-23-2007, 03:20 PM
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Re: (iBrandon)
did you use an oem head gasket? from honda not a napa/advance auto one.
b series heads are not likely to lift under safe tuning conditions. not that i suggest it, but weve made tons of power(400+) on reused stock head bolts let alone untouched ones. just something to keep in mind for the future.
b series heads are not likely to lift under safe tuning conditions. not that i suggest it, but weve made tons of power(400+) on reused stock head bolts let alone untouched ones. just something to keep in mind for the future.
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