<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dome &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so i dont need to change my fast ems to hall effect because it reads like a stock dizzy?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you can get it with the straight hall signal or the converted version.

Does anyone know which type Hall sensor this dist. uses??? from what I've read there is 3 different types that they commonly use for automotive use.

sine wave
square wave
analog

 

To my understanding, sine wave and analog are the same thing. I've never seen a hall sensor with either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was an MSD guy on here a while back, it would be great if he could shed some light on the situation!</TD></TR></TABLE>

That was me. To answer all your questions, the MSD dizzy does use Hall Effect Sensors to trigger spark. It has both internal and external circuitry to convert to square wave signals. The little "box" underneath the coil is part of that system.

And yes, I got fired. They were too intimidated by the knowledge I brought to them. You'd be surprised at how narrow-minded they are, being primarily a "V-8, Muscle car company", when it comes to Japanese engineering. That's ok, now I've got time to get my masters in Mechanical Engineering.

Hope that helps!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlackPhoenix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That was me. To answer all your questions, the MSD dizzy does use Hall Effect Sensors to trigger spark. It has both internal and external circuitry to convert to square wave signals. The little "box" underneath the coil is part of that system.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Convert to sqaure wave? The hall sensor should output a square wave on it's own, it would need to get converted to a sine wave.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Convert to square wave? The hall sensor should output a square wave on it's own, it would need to get converted to a sine wave.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think he meant it the other way around.




Modified by Dragline at 12:03 AM 4/9/2006

 

actually, most hall effects need to be converted to square wave, depending on the use, because most are A/C analog signals. as a matter-a-fact i dont think ive ever seen a digital hall effect without it being a switch of some kind (DUH!!) lol. think about it, the reluctor (wheel) spinning past a magnet which will either intensify or lower the intensity of the magnetic field, which would make an analog, or at least and A/C scope pattern. The only hall effects i know of being digital are the Hall Effect Switches, which have NPN transistors integrated, which switch on or off in the presence or lack there of, of a magnetic field. the "little box" under the dizzy is most likely that transistor, or...**** i cant think of the word, let's say its used to "clean up" or "purify" the A/C Analog signal to the ECU. someone let me know if im wrong, just spitting out **** i know about hall effect, or **** that i thought i knew, haha

 

all i want to know is when i get the dizzy should i have my fast ems changed to hall effect. right now it is for inductive pickup. and since i can be changed to i need the module? can someone fill me in.

 

whiteef8 is correct.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whiteef8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">actually, most hall effects need to be converted to square wave, depending on the use, because most are A/C analog signals. as a matter-a-fact i dont think ive ever seen a digital hall effect without it being a switch of some kind (DUH!!) lol. think about it, the reluctor (wheel) spinning past a magnet which will either intensify or lower the intensity of the magnetic field, which would make an analog, or at least and A/C scope pattern. The only hall effects i know of being digital are the Hall Effect Switches, which have NPN transistors integrated, which switch on or off in the presence or lack there of, of a magnetic field. the "little box" under the dizzy is most likely that transistor, or...**** i cant think of the word, let's say its used to "clean up" or "purify" the A/C Analog signal to the ECU. someone let me know if im wrong, just spitting out **** i know about hall effect, or **** that i thought i knew, haha</TD></TR></TABLE>


Wouldn't it have to be supplied with A/C to produce A A/C signal? Honeywell
makes A vane style hall effect sensor that is digital, I'm assuming they use A vane style....someone needs to post up some pics of the inside of one so we can see and I might of been wrong earlier(thats if they use A vane style) about the magnet being on the wheel side, the sensor creates A magnetic field and as the wheel(vane) passes through the sensor...it breaks the field and produces A sqaure wave signal which is converted over or it could be on the wheel it really depends on what they use there is about 1000 different styles..pics pics





Modified by Dragline at 7:41 AM 4/9/2006

 

Hall sensor output is ALWAYS I/O, or digital. VR sensor output is ALWAYS AC.

Here's a good link from the megasquirt assembly manual. Look at step 50:

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/V3assemble.htm

"50. Next you need to make a decision. There are two input circuits for the tach signal. One takes the square wave input from a hall sensor, optical sensor, or points. The other circuit takes the AC signal from a variable reluctor sensor and converts it to a square wave for use by MegaSquirt. In most cases, you should install both circuits, and make the selection between them with jumpers. However, if you do not want to install the Hall/optical/points circuit, skip ahead to step #51"

That excerpt describes correctly assembling the tach input circuit on MS, but the same theory applies to any engine position sensor input. The ecu always needs position inputs in terms of I/O. It is, or it isn't.

The advantage of a hall I/O signal is supposed to be that it doesn't need to be conditioned to be used. Conditioning an AC engine position signal into a required I/O signal results in some minimal decrease in accuracy.

If the MSD distrubutor senses engine position with a hall, there would have to be self contained MSD circuitry to convert the I/O signal from the hall back to AC to be sent to the ECU. The ECU would then complete its factory function (since nothing has been modified internally) by converting the AC signal it regularly expects (in this case a hall I/O signal converted to AC by MSD components) to I/0. That hall signal would be LESS accurate than the stock VR signal - since it was conditioned twice between source and destination.

I think it uses VR sensors.

 

it dosnt use a vr sensor, those dont generate enough voltage at very low rpms, this is very evident when using aem ems, if you try to idle the car very low it will give timing errors or just loose the signal all together. w/the msd dizzy its possible to idle the car as low as you want, no timing errors no stalling. Timing stays dead on.. i have verified the timing w/a timing light up to about 7500 rpms, it stays dead on and dosnt wander around like it does w/the stock vr pickups

 

Ya A VR sensor is A non powered magnetic field that produces A analog signal, were as the Hall Effect is A powered magnetic field that produces A square wave signal that MSD uses.

 

i still dont understand how you guys are saying all hall effect sensors are Digital Square Wave patterns? Maybe Hall Effect Switches, like i said earlier, but not sensors. up for more design points on this Dizzy, now you got me all confused/interested

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it dosnt use a vr sensor, those dont generate enough voltage at very low rpms, this is very evident when using aem ems, if you try to idle the car very low it will give timing errors or just loose the signal all together. w/the msd dizzy its possible to idle the car as low as you want, no timing errors no stalling. Timing stays dead on.. i have verified the timing w/a timing light up to about 7500 rpms, it stays dead on and dosnt wander around like it does w/the stock vr pickups</TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem with the honda dist. and aem is not a honda dist. problem, but rather an aem problem. You can idle a honda at 500rpms with a honda ecu.

 

well i got the cap and rotor off mine and found that all the innner working of it are sealed with allen head bolts which i dont have the right size seeing how its in my toolbox but here the pics i took of the cap and rotor off



Modified by vaporboy12 at 2:59 PM 4/9/2006

 

The link isn't showing any pics.

 

sorry fixed

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whiteef8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i still dont understand how you guys are saying all hall effect sensors are Digital Square Wave patterns? Maybe Hall Effect Switches, like i said earlier, but not sensors. up for more design points on this Dizzy, now you got me all confused/interested </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is what I'm looking at http://www.cy-sensors.com/HallEffect.htm They refer to the vane style as A sensor which is really A switch i quess and then there are the proximity style like Tony uses on his cam trigger kit and they refer to that as A switch, but they do the same thing pretty much one is stationary magnetic field and after the vane passes it creates the signal and the other has A rotating magnets which creates the signal when they pass...so I quess that is right lol. Here is A diagram of some different types but it doesn't show a vane style
http://www.melexis.com/Asset.aspx?nID=3722

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it dosnt use a vr sensor, those dont generate enough voltage at very low rpms, this is very evident when using aem ems, if you try to idle the car very low it will give timing errors or just loose the signal all together. w/the msd dizzy its possible to idle the car as low as you want, no timing errors no stalling. Timing stays dead on.. i have verified the timing w/a timing light up to about 7500 rpms, it stays dead on and dosnt wander around like it does w/the stock vr pickups</TD></TR></TABLE>

The maximum/minimum AC voltage that any VR sesor produces is constant. Look at this picture of a sine wave:


The peaks and valleys will always remain at the same signal intensity/strength. However, the time (T) to complete one sine oscillation will decrease as engine speed increases. In the previously posted picture, the sine wave closest to the top would represent a low engine speed VR sensor output. The sine wave closest to the bottom would represent a high engine speed VR sensor output.

The problem with the AEM EMS has nothing to do with voltage strength. It's all about the long oscillation period at low engine speeds. The ecu needs sharp changes/oscillations from the vr sensor to properly decode engine position.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vaporboy12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i got the cap and rotor off mine and found that all the innner working of it are sealed with allen head bolts which i dont have the right size seeing how its in my toolbox but here the pics i took of the cap and rotor off



Modified by vaporboy12 at 2:59 PM 4/9/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>

get those allen bolts out!! i really wanna see how this is setup, and i could tell you what kinda signal and all that BS, anyone have a wiring diagram for this thing? including the "mystery box" under the dizzy? I'm pretty confident in my knowledge, as i just got a 4.0 in my Advanced Electronics course at my "automotive" school (wont say name of the school, kind of ashamed, ::cough LTI::cough) Anyone's help would be great to solve this mystery

 

whiteef8...

rectifier

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ~RTErnie~ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
rectifier </TD></TR></TABLE>

YES!!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ButterBall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The maximum/minimum AC voltage that any VR sesor produces is constant. Look at this picture of a sine wave:


The peaks and valleys will always remain at the same signal intensity/strength. However, the time (T) to complete one sine oscillation will decrease as engine speed increases. In the previously posted picture, the sine wave closest to the top would represent a low engine speed VR sensor output. The sine wave closest to the bottom would represent a high engine speed VR sensor output.

The problem with the AEM EMS has nothing to do with voltage strength. It's all about the long oscillation period at low engine speeds. The ecu needs sharp changes/oscillations from the vr sensor to properly decode engine position.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So with A sine wave at high rpm's, it not being able to make one oscillation fast enough is what causes misfires?

 

I don't understand the debate about the msd not being able to use hall-effect sensors to suppy the input signals in reference to engines position to a honda ecu. Functionally a hall sensor performs the same tasks as an oem honda mag pulse generator but the halls method of generating voltage is unique. It is based on the hall-effect principle which states "If a current is allowed to flow through a thin conducting material and that material is exposed to a mag field, voltage is produced"....but before this signal voltage can be of ANY use it has to be <U>modified</U> , after leaving the hall-effect element the signal is sent through an amplifer where it is strengthend and inverted so the signal reads high when its actually low and vice sersa. Then the signal goes through a Schmitt trigger where it is converted into a clean square from sine wave.

Another interesting position sensor is the photoelectric sensor that uses LED w/ a light sensitive phototransistor and a slotted disk as a light beam interrupter to produce signal, i have seen mitsubishi and dchrysler use these on their engines


Modified by SilCiv2K at 4:01 PM 4/9/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SilCiv2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't understand the debate about the msd not being able to use hall-effect sensors to suppy the input signals in reference to engines position to a honda ecu. Functionally a hall sensor performs the same tasks as an oem honda mag pulse generator but the halls method of generating voltage is unique. It is based on the hall-effect principle which states "If a current is allowed to flow through a thin conducting material and that material is exposed to a mag field, voltage is produced"....but before this signal voltage can be of ANY use it has to be <U>modified</U> , after leaving the hall-effect element the signal is sent through an amplifer where it is strengthend and inverted so the signal reads high when its actually low and vice sersa. Then the signal goes through a Schmitt trigger where it is converted into a clean square from sine wave.

Another interesting position sensor is the photoelectric sensor that uses LED w/ a light sensitive phototransistor and a slotted disk as a light beam interrupter to produce signal, i have seen mitsubishi and dchrysler use these on their engines </TD></TR></TABLE>


Why would it need to be coverted to square wave when I thought the factory ecu reads sine wave?