<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoostedCivicSedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dave (99B16Si) tuned my car on the Uberdata ver.1.7B, and despite the criticism, I back his work 100%.... To back his statement, we tested the delay on the dyno's wideband, by comparing its readings, to the readings on the PLX M300 unit I am running in my car</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which if run through the ECU, will show up on UD 1.70's lambda trace as a cell by cell AFR. I'd trust it - since I'd be tuning by it - the dyno's wideband reading only shows up on the dyno sheet. The dyno sheet's AFRs look a little alarming, though.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99B16Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont see any lean areas here. the leaner airfuel mixture out of full load is meant to help spool time and give better resonse into boost transition. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You get more response to spool time by manipulating ignition timing. Leaner mixtures - if the entirety of the burn takes place in the combustion chamber - are going to carry less heat and therefore undergo less expansion and provide less kinetic energy to drive the turbine wheel. Unless you're running things super lean in the chamber - up around 17:1 you get insane pressure spikes in the chamber - but a few excess HCs to latch onto thermal energy helps the exhaust charge expand in the manifold and drive the turbine.

Now, if part of your burn is taking place in the exhaust runners or manifold, you've shoved more thermal energy toward the turbo and spool it faster. Are you running the chamber super lean? Or are you running it nice and rich, but reading somewhat lean because "afterburn" in the manifold doesn't usually have enough charge density to support itself for a complete reaction and causes the wideband to read erroneously.


Keep in mind widebands don't read combustion chamber AFRs - they read exhaust oxygen content that passes by the wideband sensor.

Also keep in mind you are arguing manipulation of tune to promote spool when the car should have been set up to spool earlier in the first place. Using tuning as a hack when the mechanical side hasn't been engineered correctly doesn't get you as far as a correctly done setup. Referrence my recent posts concerning correct manifold design - I'm not criticising what you've done here, or think you have an unsafe tune, I'm advocating the advancement of the basic level of design and technology our cars are built from.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99B16Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">u haters got a lot to learn </TD></TR></TABLE>

So do you, so do I, and so does Mase. Can we all just hug and make up?


Modified by J. Davis at 11:38 AM 10/8/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Haha...mase you don't know anything. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you're right, i dont know anything, i havent tuned many cars, and i havent been on say 15 dyno's across the country either

Furthermore 99b16si,

I'm not giving you unnessasary critisism, consider it more of constructive critisism. The whole point of posting dyno plots is to get feedback, comments, and concern.

Everyone is quick to ask me advice all of the time, but then when I happen to point out something that may need attention, they get pissy. Im not doing it to call you out, or make you look stupid. Im trying to point out things to help you learn. And we are all here to learn.

Lets take a look at what you said:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99B16Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

what lean area?
3000rpm, 0 boost - 14.3:1
3500rpm, 1-2psi - 13.7:1
4000rpm, 4-5psi - 13.0:1
4500rpm, 8-9psi - 12.3:1
5000rpm, 10psi - 12.2:1
6000rpm, 10psi - 12.0:1
</TD></TR></TABLE>


first off, 14.3:1 at 0 psi is way too lean. You should target that area to about 13.2:1. 14.3:1 in moderate load can melt ****.

4-5 psi at 13:1 can be argued. its still probably a tad lean.

the rest is pretty good, and you did a good job of targeting what you thought, so your ability to tune is fine, but im trying to help you realize what you should actually target here.

next time your on your dyno. take this into consideration.

Just like jdavis told you, and every good tuner out there knows.... changes in AFR does not really affect power. until u dip into the deep 11's. why would u subject a motors safety at 13:1 at 5 psi when at 12.0:1 at 5 psi, it will make about the same power.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99B16Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the leaner airfuel mixture out of full load is meant to help spool time and give better resonse into boost transition. u haters got a lot to learn </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol well hrmm, im just going to say, you'd be a great candidate for EFI101.

Good luck

 

Even I learned a trick or two at EFI101 - and Ben spent a few minutes talking to me about how he viewed ICE theory, various EMS and how they were designed completely different from others and how to deduce things from that, etc, he definitely make it worth my while.

But, uh, yeah... how about that hug??

 

Man I love it when you guys start posting tech stuff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So do you, so do I, and so does Mase. Can we all just hug and make up?

Modified by J. Davis at 11:38 AM 10/8/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
i do agree with u with timing advance as that will obviously create more cylinder pressure thus helping spool time and that was also taken into consideration during the tune.

LOL, there was never any tension in my mind. thanks for the firendly advice and HUGS FOR EVERYONE!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99B16Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i do agree with u with timing advance as that will obviously create more cylinder pressure thus helping spool time and that was also taken into consideration during the tune.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah, no. That was not what I meant.

Hunt up my posts concerning Dark Side Tuning on PGMFI. org. They may have been deleted for various reasons, but one still exists on m24x.


Modified by J. Davis at 3:24 PM 10/8/2004

 

Here is my base dyno from dave. I wanted to see what my car is putting down befor he tunes it. I would like some feed back on my A/F and my car is pushing about 6.5-7 psi on a drag 3 kit for a 99 LS

 

The second run is diff because my timing was changed back from 18de to 1 over stock timing wich helped give me more hp and tq but it feels like my turbo isnt spooling as fast

 

what do u guys mean by the boost or wastegate creeping to 13 psi. is that b/c of the manifold and the wastegate setting over to the right runner??? b/c thats nice numbers for the drag