<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yes you can, and you didn't say that, you said b18b is better for boost, you didn't say you prefer it to a vtec motor, get ur head on stright</TD></TR></TABLE>WTF get my head on straight, what the hell did u think i prefered i had said that i totally agree to someones comment about ls motors being the best, how about u actually read all the posts that i made then tell me to get my head on straight

 

what fuel management should i run?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Unsung EM1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Based on what? I would like to hear this...</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL, based on rocker arms flying off at 8500 + RPM'S

although i did go 12.4@112 in a civic hatch with an ls engineon drag radials with 10psi of boost

this is my car 3 years ago.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by espanol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i revved mine to 7500 everyday...on the way to work,on the way home, at the races,..everyday..and i never had a tick, tack or any other problem w/ the motor..ls's are dirty bitches just asking to be used and abused..lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you going off the stock tach? I was amazed at how inaccurate my tach appeared to be compared to the dyno readings. I would take it to 7200 on the stock tach and it would really only be around 6900ish.

 

My LS motor goes upto 7400-7400 easily, and that's from the dyno readings!

Anyway, I have JE Pistons (9.5 compression) with Crower rods. It dynoed @ 403hp/291tq to the wheels with 19 pounds of boost, using C16. That's what I only use to drive my car.

Check out my specs to get an idea of a boosted LS, and what it's capable of. http://www.geocities.com/turbo....html

 

I know this is a little off topic but I had to ask....what do u mean u are going to run out of gear in the top end???? Gsr gear are considered to be pretty long..right...alot longer then SIR's and Type-r's. I'm in the process of turboing my 95 gsr..I'm running an 18g and will let u know how it turns out...hopefully soon. The only question I have is...without lsd...running about 7-8 psi..what will my traction be like? will i break loose in third gear or is this too difficult to determine?

 

the above post was in response to .....99lspwr

 

my friend with a ls/max rev kit ran an 11.99 @118 on a stock block @14 lbs.

i'd say ls turbo is def worth it, goodluck on your buildup!

 

If you want help piecing together a turbo kit and getting everything put together let me know, I'm in the Rochester area and I'm rebuilding a DX from pretty much nothing right now. I'm going D16Y8 turbo though, just so if I do blow it to hell I can replace it cheaply.

Fuel management is all a matter of what you want to spend. Theres tons of people running AFCs and a lot more with Hondata, AEM, etc. Its all a matter of what you need vs. what you have the money for.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by streetlvlhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sparks or max rev?</TD></TR></TABLE>

how many topics are you gonna post this in?

And its SPARK not sparks......

 

This which is a better motor to turbo debate is pointless without constraints. You have not set up any constraints ie will the motors be left internally stock, is cost an issue, what can be done to each. If you want to debate it set up some constraints first otherwise it will be tough to find a common ground.

Jake d.

 

I just swapped over form a b16a turbo to an ls turbo. Im loving the low end and the t3/t4s is fully spooled by 3200rpm!. My b16 at 7psi dynoed at 231hp and 159tp with the same turbo on the LS and 5.5psi it hit 202hp and 205tq..

 

Ahh yes the great LS turbo debate. "But LS's have lower compression and longer gears. That means I stay in boost longer right?"

Here's basically the way I see it. From the motor stand point people think oh lower compression, turbo's like lower compression right? Well sure less pressure is easier to tune. I.E. easier not to **** up caused from detonation. 1G DSM's were 7.8:1 compression. I think you could get away with running water in the gas tank tha'ts so low. Here's the thing. Anyone who's blow up a Honda from boost probably knows about cracked ringlands. It's usually the first thing to go. More pressure, more stress cracked ringlands, bye bye motor. So to make = power from an LS vs VTEC motor you need more boost. More stress on motor.

As far as street set-ups go. You need more boost to make matching power from an LS period end of story. Why? Cylinder heads. This has been beaten to death and we all know that a fully race ported head MAY come close to out flowing a stock VTEC head. Either way it would be close. That and cam profiles. TQ is a good thing, I wont' deny it and I know HP is a derivative of TQ. HP=TQ x RPM. Got less of one, increase the other. That's why B16A's are so impressive to me. Little amount of TQ, rev em to the moon. So we know now that you will need more boost to get the LS to have the same amount of power, more pressure, more stress, more risk. You take a B16A w/ a good t/b intake manfiold and 3" turbo back, good itnercooler and 2.5" piping with a T3/T4 60/63 and make 250whp. Take an LS and make 220whp. I've seen it. That's quite a marginal gain there. The LS probably makes up for it in TQ from a numbers stand point, but I will guarntee the B16A will be quicker AND faster in the 1/4 provided = chassis, traction and driver AND tranny choices, LS/GSR/B16A/ITR which ever one. Now from a racing point of view. I'll take the LS crank any day, but that's all I would take from it. This is an opinion strictly based on straight line performance. Not daily driving, not gas milage, not 60-140 racing, not racing from 3rd gear, not road racing, auto-xing etc... Obviously an ideal would be the GSR or LS/VTEC because the best of both worlds. TQ, rev range, head flow etc...

Anyway you slice it any turbo Honda is just flat out fun to drive. Whether it be a D/B/H/F/K whatever a boosted power band just feels fast wether you make 170 or 1070. This isn't meant to be fact, it is soley based on my expieriences with driving and track times and my opinion. It is entertainment only. So no one get there panties in a bunch or anything.

 

i have to disagree with you. for one, higher compression puts stress on the ring lands as well. why do you think compression test on vtec motors usually yield a lot higher than non-vtec motors? higher cylinder pressure...you're squeezing more air/fuel mass into a smaller area. now think of it this way...with the same setup on both a vtec motor and non vtec motor running about 7 psi, you're putting more stress on the vtec motor. WHY?? you ask. because of the higher compression that's why. it's common knowledge...the vtec motor with their higher compression pistons have less combustion area...where as a non vtec motor will have more. there for putting more stress on the vtec motor's ring lands.

and another thing...an ls will not lose to a b16 given any tranny. the only reason why the ls is slower is due to it's gearing. more torque=more accelerating force=faster acceleration. use the same tranny on both motors and the ls will usually come out victorious.

put it this way...i make 276.9whp and 252.2wtq on my si hatch/ls turbo with gsr tranny. my buddy with a lighter EG hatch/gsr turbo making 284whp and 167wtq is a lot slower than i am. my 0-60 sec. time is faster than his w/me and him taking turns driving and when we raced, after launching i'm always ahead of him. switch cars and with me driving his car and him driving mine and he takes off on me. same tires, rims, supsension(stock struts on neuspeed sport(me), stock struts on neuspeed race(him)).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shermanyang &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have to disagree with you. for one, higher compression puts stress on the ring lands as well. why do you think compression test on vtec motors usually yield a lot higher than non-vtec motors? higher cylinder pressure...you're squeezing more air/fuel mass into a smaller area. now think of it this way...with the same setup on both a vtec motor and non vtec motor running about 7 psi, you're putting more stress on the vtec motor. WHY?? you ask. because of the higher compression that's why. it's common knowledge...the vtec motor with their higher compression pistons have less combustion area...where as a non vtec motor will have more. there for putting more stress on the vtec motor's ring lands.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The stress of positive pressure on the ringlands is FAR greater that that of an engine's compression. Hence why you can run CTR pistons in an LS/VTEC wtih aroudn 12.3:1 compression and rev it to 9000 all day. No ringland problems. Upgrade rod bolts and proper tuning no problme. Boost = more pressue then what what your engine's compression is putting on it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and another thing...an ls will not lose to a b16 given any tranny. the only reason why the ls is slower is due to it's gearing. more torque=more accelerating force=faster acceleration. use the same tranny on both motors and the ls will usually come out victorious.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This has been proven over and over again. You can throw the B16 tranny on both. VTEC comes out on top with the same boost same mods everything else said before.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">put it this way...i make 276.9whp and 252.2wtq on my si hatch/ls turbo with gsr tranny. my buddy with a lighter EG hatch/gsr turbo making 284whp and 167wtq is a lot slower than i am. my 0-60 sec. time is faster than his w/me and him taking turns driving and when we raced, after launching i'm always ahead of him. switch cars and with me driving his car and him driving mine and he takes off on me. same tires, rims, supsension(stock struts on neuspeed sport(me), stock struts on neuspeed race(him)).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm what's the bore size of both motors and what turbo's are each running? That GSR sounds WAY down on TQ. I mean come on my friends 99 si w/ 246whp is making more TQ then that. The TQ less wonder making less whp and more wtq then a GSR? Hmmm. My friends GSR set-up made 292whp and 221wtq. Granted it's make 8whp more but come on to make 54wtq more? Hmmm sounds a little fishy. Also I have another friend with an LS turbo set-up makeing 277whp and 226.6 wtq. I'm sorry but the LS motor having an 89 vs 87.2mm stroke obviously that yields a little mroe TQ and shifts the power band down a little, but the numbers you are putting up sound way off to me. There's no way two comparable build GSR and LS motors with similar bolt-ons and turbo's should have an almost 90lb ft differnce when the GSR motor is making 8whp more. That's just plain rediculous. If LS was the way to go there'd be more running it. You get more for your money with the VTEC motors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If LS was the way to go there'd be more running it. You get more for your money with the VTEC motors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree, the reason that there are (according to you, neither of us really knows) more GSR turbos, is because the GSR is the enthusiast model of the Integra. Thus, more enthusiast minded people buy them. And which people are also more likely to turbochare a car? The enthusiast of course!

Basically what I'm getting at, is of all the people who buy Integra (or Civic's) most of them bought them because they were the fastest trim level stock; NOT because they planned on turboing them later. Yes MOST, I don't care how many of your friends bought them with turboing them in mind, I'm looking at the big picture here. That's why there are (we are assuming your statement was correct here) more GSR turbo's than LS turbos.

 

Oh yeah, why hasn't anyone brought up the ever so popular "power under the curve" argument yet?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Boost = more pressue then what what your engine's compression is putting on it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes i know boost = more pressure than what your engine's compression is putting on it. but low compression + boost will always be easier on your ring lands vs. high compression + boost. if high compression + boost were easier on your engine parts, why do you think most boosted motors (in general) use low compression pistsons? why do you think mitsubishi made the evo 8 with low compression pistons and a high boost level? reliability maybe?!?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This has been proven over and over again. You can throw the B16 tranny on both. VTEC comes out on top with the same boost same mods everything else said before.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

you never said anything about boost. but since you put it that way, i'll use your comparison of the b16 making 250whp and the ls making 220whp. people say horsepower is everything but on a short run like the 1320, but having more TORQUE will always pull you down the 1320 FASTER! horsepower usually comes into play with top end runs. just put it this way...if you put a turbo'd 16 motor in a 3000lb accord and a turbo'd ls motor in the same accord...which one do you think would accelerate faster? no doubt the ls will because of it's torque. it's all pyshics.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Hmmm what's the bore size of both motors and what turbo's are each running? That GSR sounds WAY down on TQ. I mean come on my friends 99 si w/ 246whp is making more TQ then that. The TQ less wonder making less whp and more wtq then a GSR? Hmmm. My friends GSR set-up made 292whp and 221wtq. Granted it's make 8whp more but come on to make 54wtq more? Hmmm sounds a little fishy. Also I have another friend with an LS turbo set-up makeing 277whp and 226.6 wtq. I'm sorry but the LS motor having an 89 vs 87.2mm stroke obviously that yields a little mroe TQ and shifts the power band down a little, but the numbers you are putting up sound way off to me. There's no way two comparable build GSR and LS motors with similar bolt-ons and turbo's should have an almost 90lb ft differnce when the GSR motor is making 8whp more. That's just plain rediculous. If LS was the way to go there'd be more running it. You get more for your money with the VTEC motors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i'm running a t3/t04e .63/.60 .57 trim and he's running a ball bearing 60-1. he's also got itr pistons while i'm running ross 8.8:1 pistons. he's got a smaller FMIC, and tuning with a vafc while i'm running a hondata 3B. maybe those are the reason's why he's making such little torque. but in any case...my point was, if the ls made the same amount of horsepower of a vtec motor, it would easily be able to out run it due to the excessive amount of torque. the ls motor also has a faster climbing hp curve as well usually coming close to max whp at 5k and flatening out from there making it very usable. where as the vtec motor makes max hp by revving the booties out of it. i'll use my buddy tyler's graph as an example see where the ls power band starts to drop...that is usually the only reason why on top end runs the vtec motor is start to shine. but that's nothing a set of cams couldn't fix.

damnit...i think i've had enough of this(too early)...either way to each his own.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I disagree, the reason that there are (according to you, neither of us really knows) more GSR turbos, is because the GSR is the enthusiast model of the Integra. Thus, more enthusiast minded people buy them. And which people are also more likely to turbochare a car? The enthusiast of course!

Basically what I'm getting at, is of all the people who buy Integra (or Civic's) most of them bought them because they were the fastest trim level stock; NOT because they planned on turboing them later. Yes MOST, I don't care how many of your friends bought them with turboing them in mind, I'm looking at the big picture here. That's why there are (we are assuming your statement was correct here) more GSR turbo's than LS turbos.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually I wasn't even talking about stock cars. I was referring to swapped cars. LS Swaps are so much cheaper, yet anyone knonws the advantages of doing a GSR swap becaue of the better outcome. Now if you want to do LS/VTEC that's another story. Basically I'm going the design pricipals of the head here.

As far as the "Power under the curve debate" It's not as important in drag racing.

 

Ok what I was saying was that with the LS you need MORE BOOST to = the same amount of HP as a VTEC motor. So 10-11psi on 9.2:1 compression is more stressful then 6-8psi on 10:1 compression. See what I'm saying?




<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you never said anything about boost. but since you put it that way, i'll use your comparison of the b16 making 250whp and the ls making 220whp. people say horsepower is everything but on a short run like the 1320, but having more TORQUE will always pull you down the 1320 FASTER! horsepower usually comes into play with top end runs. just put it this way...if you put a turbo'd 16 motor in a 3000lb accord and a turbo'd ls motor in the same accord...which one do you think would accelerate faster? no doubt the ls will because of it's torque. it's all pyshics.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well fine from an all motor stand point there is even less of an arguemnt. Let's take for example my daily driver a 99si. My car has bolt-ons, street tires and mild weight reduction and runs 14.85 @ 91.1mph. If you find me an LS integra with the same bolt-on's, B16A tranny, street tires and the same weight as my car that could break into the 14's I would be shocked. The LS into not an inferior platform by any means, there are just better platforms out there.

From the turbo standpoint in an accord I'm sorry I have no comparisons for a B-Series in an accord. However I have seen for myself 2 6th gen DX hatches. Both had the EXACT same weight reduction, same models. One silver one red. One LS swap with eagle rods, JE 81.5mm 9:1's and a Rev Hard stage 2 kit. The other one was a JDM B16A swap w/ eagle rods, stock bore 81mm pistons portflow valvetrain but an untouched head and a rev hard stage 2 kit. Both had skunk2 manifolds, the B16 had a 64mm t/b, the LS 66mm. Both had 3" turbo back. Both tuned on 8psi. The B16A made 240.3whp and 168.1wtq. The LS one made 211.8whp and 183.1wtq. Both also ran Lenso's w/ 23/7.5/15 slicks. B16 had Si wheels on teh back with 195/55/15's and the LS had GSR 5-spokes w/ 195/50/15 Pirellies.

The LS cut a 1.78 60' and the B16 a 1.83' so the LS had the advantage right off the bat. It was pretty close at the 1/8 mile mark, but @ the 1/4 the B16A would have the advantage everytime by 3-4 tenths.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but in any case...my point was, if the ls made the same amount of horsepower of a vtec motor, it would easily be able to out run it due to the excessive amount of torque. the ls motor also has a faster climbing hp curve as well usually coming close to max whp at 5k and flatening out from there making it very usable. where as the vtec motor makes max hp by revving the booties out of it. i'll use my buddy tyler's graph as an example see where the ls power band starts to drop...that is usually the only reason why on top end runs the vtec motor is start to shine. but that's nothing a set of cams couldn't fix.

damnit...i think i've had enough of this(too early)...either way to each his own.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well obviously if they both had same HP, but the LS had more TQ with similar cars and same gearset the LS SHOULD win theoretically. That's not what I was arguing. You need more boost to get the LS there more stress blah blah blah. Then you throw cams in teh mix tha'ts an unfair advantage etc...


Either way as I said in my original post it was just my opinion, not fact etc... Like I said turbo Honda's are fun regardless no matter what. These are all just my opinions as well these are all your opinions. It seems as though we could argue this to the death so I'll just leave as any boost is good boost and enjoy your car man. Looks like a lot of fun. Everyone boost on.

 

What hp will my stock axles be able to take (i want to run slicks at the track)?

 

it is impossible to turbo the ls, no one has ever done it

 

I think whar we are all getting at here is that an LS takes to boost much better than any of us would have thought. A B16 and a B18b boosted w/ proper fuel management will both lay down nice numbers. The B16 will traditionally have higher peak numbers while the LS makes nice tq....they both make good numbers.

 

will an emanage be able to hand 550 injecotors while maintaining stock idle? I can get a e-manage really cheap and wondered if compares to hondata?