B and B

iTrader: (3)

I hate to say it, but I suspect my dry sleeve job is fucked.
Engine is now smoking on accel. and burning copius amounts of oil a few thousand miles in service.
Speaking to Steve D. about how we had to force them into the block, I think my man got the bores too small for the sleeves, distorting them.
Won't be pulling engine down for awhile as it's a daily, so I don't have much evidence yet.
I'm mulling options at this point. I know the popular response is to go MID, but is there any way to remove these flanged sleeves and re-machine the block for more flanged sleeves?
Also, if anyone has experience with out-of-round or tapered cylinders or both...Does it take awhile for the oil consumption to begin?
I have a glimmer of hope that maybe something more acute happened with rings or something, guess I need to tear it down for autopsy.
Man, it sucks. I meticulously assembled the built block for my kid and whole thing goes south.
I was there for most of the work, but couldn't jump in front of him and question his use of an inside mic.
The interference fit recommended by Darton of ~.0015 iirc made for tight squeeze. Only one went in with hand pressure. Sleeves were frozen in dry ice. Bores coated with green Loctite.
Had to drive the others

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

You're supposed to bore/hone AFTER the sleeves are installed which will square the cylinders. This shouldn't even be a problem. I don't know who "Steve D." is but ask him what the p2w was.

Your diagnosis seems very extreme without any evidence. Have you looked at other possibilities of oil consumption? Head via valve seals/guides or turbo via seals.

B and B

iTrader: (3)

R.E.D. - Race Engine Development | COMPUTER AIDED DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT OF RACE ENGINES AND COMPONENTS


Steve Demirjian is the proprietor...he didn't do my install. Member here.

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply, man.
I had a friend local do it, he has experience with sleeving LS V-8'S and small engines like watercraft, etc.
Anyway, This was a complete rebuild, with all oem parts. Turbo isn't on yet, we ran it NA while waiting for money for final components.
I replaced the valve guides myself, exhaust only, intakes had hardly any wobble. Mic'd the stock valves...within service limits of FSM. New oem stem seals. Valve job..followed up by further touch up after magnification by me revealed tiny pits on a couple seats.
By bore, I mean the holes left after we machined out the stock sleeves.
Darton recommends an interference fit, so you strive for a thou or so less than the o.d. of the sleeves.
The process seemed well executed, I just don't know how much we should've actually set the bore to. Went with Darton rep's instructions.

But according to Steve (Lord of Sleeving, afaik)...the sleeves should've slid in. My bud said he always drives them in, which is when I think the process went south.
We didn't have flood coolant on the Rottler used, maybe contributing.
The changes in temp during machining is a real challenge. not only on the machining center, but also at the honing process... (talking actual cylinder bore now.) I took my dial bore gauge to the shop and measured as Lupe honed, and there are variances after your parts cool later.
Bore changed slightly, and taper, and this is at ambient, what happens under operating temps?
It takes alot of time to bore and hone single cylinders and allow proper cool down, which most shops just don't feel they have time for. I guess cuz they don't charge us for it, and we don't really want to pay for it.
Seems like only the big dogs use the proper procedures, ERL, RED, Golden Eagle, Steve does most for Darton.
Maybe I'll find something else upon teardown, but the engine is beautiful, dry on outside, with quality parts, fresh, and smoking.
Only other thing I could think of is maybe some hard hits before engine was warm...don't know if that could screw up rings.
I set the gaps carefully to Earls and other's recommended specs.
CP pistons, around 4 thou. ptw IIrc.. I'll check my book.
Plugs aren't oily, but do exibit ash.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Was any sort of sealant or adhesive used between the sleeve and block? I've heard of some people using a small amount to positively retain the liner and to prevent it from spinning (possibly) during boring and honing.

Also typically during installation the sleeve will be chilled and/or the block being slightly heated so the sleeve contracts and the block expands allowing for the liner to just be placed by hand. Normally you'll take a small propane torch and heat the block around each liner. Aluminum expands faster than the liner so it should make removal a breeze.

Sometimes you can just take them out by hand after heating or you'll need a rubber mallet and a soft piece of wood or a slide hammer if they are a bit stuck.

B and B

iTrader: (3)

Would egged bores or tapered use this much oil? A quart in 200 miles. I just don't remember it doing this at first..but it didn't get alot of miles in the beginning after rebuild.

Maybe with heat it would be possible to get em out, but it was really hard to get em in. and nothing to drive against from bottom.would hate to have to cut them out, the work was pretty good I think except for the clearances. I'll post some pics.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Never heard of removing anything other than stock sleeves, in for curiosity.

Also, do a leakdown test and see where the air is going. Chances are, that's where the oil is coming from, too.

OneBadTurboCRV

Ask this guy... I am pretty sure he has installed quite a few dry sleeves and maybe done one twice?

https://honda-tech.com/welding-fabri...ation-3153615/

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Typically a dry sleeve is only retained by the clamping force of the head. Once you pull the motor they *should* come out with minimal effort. It depends on sleeve design and the machine work.

OneBadTurboCRV

No. Bad kitty. What you are describing is WET sleeves. Dry sleeves are installed by removing most or all of the original cylinder liner for a specific interference fit. Then finishing to a specific RA depending on manufacturer and typically uses some type of bonding agent for insurance..

B and B

iTrader: (3)

Gonna borrow a leakdown tester this weekend and see what I can find.

OneBadTurboCRV

After actually spending the time reading this thread I found at least 2 things that I didn't like.

The first being liquid nitrogen wasn't used to chill the sleeves first. The dry ice **could** have caused different temperatures across the sleeve and thus different measurements. The preferred method would be to put them in a vat of liquid nitrogen. (Not that I am saying this directly is related to your issues though...)

The way the honing was done without coolant on the machine. I mean WTF? You almost can't be serious. I would be willing to bet that is your problem right there. Also, the "cold hits" are never a good idea either and may have contributed.

Dark_Teg

Have you ever messed with liquid nitrogen? No need to get parts to -300 F, -10 F in a deep freeze works just fine and cools evenly.

OneBadTurboCRV

Every single week at my job. Low pressure only though, but that doesn't matter as all we do is fill bins to shrink parts. During HOT summer months when it is forgotten to be ordered or it vents off before we can use it we use dry ice or unfortunately the fridge freezer haha. I will tell you it doesn't shrink the parts enough or there are fitment issues. If we get the liquid nitrogen in the part slips right in; when I say part they usually are bronze bushings or bushings made from Astralloy products. But yeah, what do I know?

In any event the bore should be machined specifically for the expansion / contraction tables for the specific metal being used. I am no machinist but in my field of work I do use micrometers of all kinds just about every day and fully understand interference fit processes.

1HGEJ2

iTrader: (1)

why does darton not have an install guide for dry sleeve? only for wet

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Because Darton, and other sleeving companies like Darton, make more money if they sell the install with the part. They also don't want to encourage DIYers to think it's something they can just do in their garage. They also also believe that any shop capable of doing it would know how to do it, and wouldn't need an install guide.

Dark_Teg

Liquid nitrogen just seems like overkill to me. I hate using that stuff, dangerous!

B and B

iTrader: (3)

The final hone after boring the sleeves was done on another Rottler machine, a hone, an HP6, using diamond abrasives and flood coolant. Like this one..

The F68 used to cut out the stock sleeves and prep for the flanged sleeves isn't equipped with flood coolant capabilities.
It's not uncommon, but it's evidently not ideal.

I had an advisor there send me instructions. Apparently, they had one on their site at one time also.
But they do make you wonder..for instance, they rated them at a certain psi for power level. ?
Psi from one turbo is a totally different power level from another. And we aren't talking like tensile strength, it was ~ 25 psi..I would have to look back.
Yes, it is pretty straight-forward. Two bores, one for lower body of sleeve and a larger one for the flange. The machining center uses a laser probe to establish bore centers/parameters.
We left about .0025 of the flanges above deck height so all would be decked off evenly.
Rich777 has these, and I guess he had better results.
Maybe we will find something else when it's opened up.