boostedeg302

I'm now considering e-85 over c-16 fuel for a 600+ hp street car. I know nothing about e-85 and was wondering if you guys could help me out by telling me what I need to convert to e-85. I now have a t3/t67 with 1000cc rc injectors. Is that an ok goal or am I never gonna get 600+ running that setup on e-85

Schister66

Since E85 has a lower stoich than gasoline, the fuel system is going to have to flow more than a typical 600whp gasoline setup. I'm not sure exactly how much fuel you'll need, but a Walbro on stock lines is NOT going to cut it. I would imagine that an Aeromotive A1000 and upgraded fuel lines w/ 1600cc injectors should be able to handle 600whp on E85. I know that if i keep my car, i'm going for 1000ccs and only shooting for low 400s on E85.

Bump for more answers

Supacharge

^ pretty much what he said

boostedeg302

well I was going with dual walbros and bigger lines. Its getting completely redone so I can get whatever I need. So my best bet would be to upgrade to 1600cc?

Schister66

If you think about it based in terms of gasoline. For 600whp, the basic 6cc per 1hp can give you an idea.

600/ 4cyl = 150 per cylinder

6cc x 150 = 900cc ...we'll say roughly 1000cc

Now, if you figure that gasoline needs ~1000cc x4 = 4000cc of fuel; whereas, E85 needs 1000cc x 1.3 x 4 = 5200cc....that means for a setup that requires 1000cc injectors on gasoline, you'll need at least a 1300cc for E85

...my math may be off so someone else at least ok this

boosted hybrid

If you want over 600whp on e85, you'll need to run either 1600cc injectors or 8 injector set-up. Because you have to run so much more pulse width on the injector at low rpm/vacuum conditions, 1600cc's actually run pretty well. If you are using AEM, you can use staged injection and run something like 750cc saturated injectors on the primary and 750cc saturated on the secondary injectors. This way you wont have to wire a resistor box inline, and its very straight forward adding the additional secondary injector wiring. I just did a car with 750cc's on the primaries, and 1600cc's on the secondaries with AEM on staged injection set-up running e85 and it worked flawlessly. Start up, idle and drivability were like stock. At 525whp duty cycle was around 35-40%. http://forums.evans-tuning.com...=4844

E85 is great stuff. I keep tuning more and more customers with it, and make about 7-8% more power at the same boost over typical pump or race gas. The only thing you have to watch out for is the summer and winter blends. Summer blend is around 15-20% gas, winter blend is around 30-35% gas. This can significantly effect the tune. I had a customer come in with this: http://forums.evolutionm.net/s...05253 It allows you to monitor the blend that you are getting to make sure you dont run into issues with getting inconsistent blends.

boostedeg302

that display is a damn good idea. It just let's me know when I gotta drop bills on a tune. That's the only thing I'm worried about. I dont really wanna take my car 2+ hours away twice a year for a retune.

96 GSR-T

Where are you sourcing your E85 in lower DE? Only place so far in DE that I know of is 1 mile from my house in Newark. One good thing about the pump near my house is the owner guaranteed me they will never sell E70 (winter blend). I will still ask him everytime I go there though.

boostedeg302

Yes around seaford. Guess I will have to drive to Newark with a tank truck to get e-85 lol

96 GSR-T

Just go get a 50 or 100 Gal tank for a pickup truck and haul that **** back.

boostedeg302

ill do it haha

HiProfile

I'm glad you pointed that out, Mr Evans. Its good to see you post on occation too.

I've been looking up the required sensor for that kit, and its $500 new, but can be had used (or if you find the discontinued sensor) for $50 or less. I've looked into it, and it should work with my SSI-4. So with my motor all rebuilt, an E85 station a stone's throw away, and that do-hicky, I should be having fun next summer.


BTW the reason there is a winter-blend is because 'real' E85 (which is really ~81%) has problems atomizing or something when its cold. Lots of purpose-built flex-fuel cars shipped to cold climates use a small heated reservoir (just for cold-start) and an exhaust route that warms the gas tank.

fast2camciv

so i have been looking into e85 a lot...we have several stations around here that have it...i have a couple questions though...

the winter blend...do they post it at the station that they are infact using the winter blend, e70 is that correct?

and i want to get around 550hp, would an intank walbro, inline walbro, with -8an feed lines and stock feed as return, and 1000cc injectors support that?

Schister66

550 / 4 = 138 hp per cylinder

138hp x 6cc (per hp) = 830 meaning you should run 880cc injectors with gasoline if you dont want to run really high duty cycles

830 cc x 1.3 = 1080cc

Therefore, you could run 1000cc's but it might not be a bad idea to move up to 1200cc's instead

fast2camciv

and is that calculated from 100% duty cycle? and theoretically bumping base pressure to 50psi should give me a bit of headroom right?

and with 1200cc's on e85 im thinking idle would be comparable to 1000's on gas? yes, no?

and what about the honda ecu drivers, in conjunction with 1200's and the pulse width of those on e85?

im trying to learn so please excuse my off base questions lol

servion

I've done a handful of cars to 500whp with 1000's and E85. That e85 mixture gauge is a great idea!

Schister66

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fast2camciv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and is that calculated from 100% duty cycle? and theoretically bumping base pressure to 50psi should give me a bit of headroom right? </TD></TR></TABLE>

The 5cc of injector per 1 horsepower (flywheel) i believe gives somewhere in the 85-90% duty cycle IF you use that calculation for wheel horsepower. The way i like to think about it is giving 6cc/ 1whp.

In that instance my car 315whp / 4 = 79whp per cylinder

79whp x 6cc = 474cc Therefore, i run a 550cc injector at a leisurely duty cycle in the 60-70% range i'd imagine (calculates to an 86% of a 550, but that is incorrect)

79whp x 5cc = 395cc ...that isn't too hard to believe because people have made this kind of power on DSM 450s, but the duty cycle is higher. For safety's sake, i would go w/ a 6cc per 1whp on gasoline and multiply that by a factor of 1.3 to convert to E85

DA_HONDA_BOY

http://rceng.com/technical.aspx

hope this help

fast2camciv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DA_HONDA_BOY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> http://rceng.com/technical.aspx

hope this help
</TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks!

well according to this http://rceng.com/technical.asp...heet_

640hp (flywheel, around 550whp, 15% drivetrain loss)
4 injectors
BSFC of .60
duty cycle of 80%
fuel rail pressure of 43.5

gives me an injector size of 1269cc and thats on gas! e85 (roughly 30% more fuel) would be 1649cc's

something doesnt sound right...are those numbers correct with a typical boosted honda configuration?

DA_HONDA_BOY

add more fuel pressure 1600cc will good for your goal

fast2camciv

true, but then you have guys like this
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2142784
that are running 1000cc's and making nearly 600whp....

seems like there is some descrepencies between what is theoretical, and what is actually being done....

Schister66

that's what i'm saying....1000-1200cc injectors will be fine for 550-600whp, but if you want a little wiggle room, go w/ 1600cc

stealthmode62

My mood for math is very low, but here is what I'm working on now. If anyone with experience can point out any trouble spots that would be great.

Planned WHP: 460
Pump: 255hp walbro (10 gauge wire all the way to pump, from battery)
Injectors: 1000cc
Feed: -10 from pump to rail
Return: stock.

I've read so much contradicting statements on E85 that it's hard to see if I'm on the right track, or if something should be changed.

96 GSR-T

That is my car that made that on 1000cc's and my good friends car also did it, but made 40ftlb more torque than me (my 81.5mmx87mm vs. his 85mmx89mm) and used stock lines and a single 255hp. I will also like to add that my base FP was 50psi and I had hardwired my Walbro's through relays to the battery to get more out of them. My car hit 620 or so but went 13.0 lean real quick, I would like to think I could of made more power than I did with possible a 10psi raise in base FP and if I would of had the correct Fuel Filter on the car (ran a very very restrictive Blue Earls Carb. Filter).

Squigglez

we recently went with e85 on one of our shop cars. specs and dyno graph are below.

84mm GE Sleeved LS/V with Manley Turbo Tuff/CP 9:1 combo
JG ported GSR head with Full Ferrea package w/stock size valves
BBK SSI I/M and 76mm RPM T/B
CX Racing 4" thick core w/ 2.5" hotside and 3" coldside piping
Lovefab ramhorn T3 or T4 manifold 46mm Tial gate dumped behind pan
Turbonetics Tomahawk R ~72mm SFWD legal BB turbo
Walbro intank feeding a walbro inline -6 to Aero filter -8 to rail and reg using factory feed line as the return
1600cc Injectors
NLR Boost Controller

between c16 tune and e85 tune the trans was also changed from a b16 to an LS trans.

23 pounds of boost w/ 65% IDC


This is what the car looked like on c16 with 1000cc injectors and 26 pounds of boost



Modified by Squigglez at 1:56 PM 12/13/2007