Mr.E.G.

I have a boosted miata 1.6 liter. the turbo kit is a pretty low tech conservative kit. it makes 180 whp at 9 lbs of boost and features a pretty small intercooler as well as some intercooler piping that makes a toilet paper tube seem big.

I am planning to run more boost and plan to reach about 200-250 whp. it makes no sense to me to try to squeeze out a bunch of power through a less than optimal setup (for example the intercooler piping wraps around various components that are no longer present in my car such as ac compressor and power steering pump, etc.)

i am fairly certain i need a larger intercooler and larger piping. i could simply ask on the miata forum what size everyone else is running but i'd rather seek the ability to make that determination myself and let's face it, there are more knowledgeable people here.

how does one go about figuring out what size piping and intercooler you need for a given application?

blinx9900

this is what I and most people i know do:

step 1: remove front bumper
step 2: measure stuff
step 3: decide if your bumer reinforcement is staying or going
step 4: fit the largest **** intercooler you can find


seriously, it might seem like the whole bigger is better attitude but thats honestly how i feel about intercoolers. i

Mr.E.G.

well, i really want as small of an intercooler as i can get away with. maybe a little bit bigger for later plans but nothing too big. this is for a road race car that will be spared of every possible ounce of weight and an intercooler that weighs 10 lbs more would really **** in my corn flakes.

splitime

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, i really want as small of an intercooler as i can get away with. maybe a little bit bigger for later plans but nothing too big. this is for a road race car that will be spared of every possible ounce of weight and an intercooler that weighs 10 lbs more would really **** in my corn flakes. </TD></TR></TABLE>

For a road race car... that sees lots of time in boost and long sessions... i'd be more worried about heatsoaking a small IC. I went with a very large IC just for that reason on my Miata build... hell we V-mounted it so rad/IC both got lots of fresh air.

http://www.miataturbo.net btw... search a hair before asking Qs and its a quite helpful and knowledgeable group

Mr.E.G.

don't take this the wrong way, but a v mount setup is not something i'm particularly fond of. i can elaborate if you care to hear it, but i will spare you the lecture as to avoid sounding like an ***.

i will be using ducting that will completely isolate the airflow to and from the intercooler so heat soak should be a non issue altogether. aside from heat that is conducted through the charge piping and that which is introduced by the air charge itself (hopefully only to be dissipated knock on wood) there should be no source for heat soak to be an issue.

i think i've seen your car on miata.net if i'm not mistaken but do you happen to have a link?

HiProfile

You're thinking heatsoak means heat collected from any component other than the air charge/turbo. On H-T heatsoak means the induction parts' temps rise beyond acceptable levels collect more heat than they can disapate (charge piping, intercooler, turbo compressor, intake manifold). So an intercooler in splitime's example is oversized based on required external surface area, rather than required internal surface area.

In your case, I'd suggest a thinner, longer tube/fin core. Bar-plate is generally the most efficient, but tube/fin is the lightest. 250whp doesn't need high internal flow, but higher boost from a small turbo tends to be hotter than normal. A longer core pushes the air through it faster & longer. This means more turbulance and longer cooling period, which results in the best mix of cooling and flow. Hondas generally have large FMIC's because they can - they're cheap on ebay, and a few cuts can fit a 12"x26"x3.5" core...

blinx9900

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're thinking heatsoak means heat collected from any component other than the air charge/turbo. On H-T heatsoak means the induction parts' temps rise beyond acceptable levels collect more heat than they can disapate (charge piping, intercooler, turbo compressor, intake manifold). So an intercooler in splitime's example is oversized based on required external surface area, rather than required internal surface area.

In your case, I'd suggest a thinner, longer tube/fin core. Bar-plate is generally the most efficient, but tube/fin is the lightest. 250whp doesn't need high internal flow, but higher boost from a small turbo tends to be hotter than normal. A longer core pushes the air through it faster & longer. This means more turbulance and longer cooling period, which results in the best mix of cooling and flow. Hondas generally have large FMIC's because they can - they're cheap on ebay, and a few cuts can fit a 12"x26"x3.5" core... </TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed, too bad the OP is in Russia, a friend of mine has a nice apexi GT spec about that size on teh cheap!! i wish companies made thinner intercoolers that had more surface area...

Mr.E.G.

i'm not really in russia. lol. i'm just a dork with a boner for agitprop and all things related.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're thinking heatsoak means heat collected from any component other than the air charge/turbo. On H-T heatsoak means the induction parts' temps rise beyond acceptable levels collect more heat than they can disapate (charge piping, intercooler, turbo compressor, intake manifold). So an intercooler in splitime's example is oversized based on required external surface area, rather than required internal surface area.

In your case, I'd suggest a thinner, longer tube/fin core. Bar-plate is generally the most efficient, but tube/fin is the lightest. 250whp doesn't need high internal flow, but higher boost from a small turbo tends to be hotter than normal. A longer core pushes the air through it faster & longer. This means more turbulance and longer cooling period, which results in the best mix of cooling and flow. Hondas generally have large FMIC's because they can - they're cheap on ebay, and a few cuts can fit a 12"x26"x3.5" core... </TD></TR></TABLE>

i see. that is good info and i really appreciate it. i am still confused about how to determine the size or volume of the intercooler.

splitime

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're thinking heatsoak means heat collected from any component other than the air charge/turbo. On H-T heatsoak means the induction parts' temps rise beyond acceptable levels collect more heat than they can disapate (charge piping, intercooler, turbo compressor, intake manifold). So an intercooler in splitime's example is oversized based on required external surface area, rather than required internal surface area. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Lets not forget airflow to the radiator. Which on a roadcourse built car... also requires lots of thought. Just putting them into the airflow and ducting them doesn't guarantee the car will stay cool. The miata mouth opening isn't very large for packing everything in imo.

Mr.E.G. If you saw my car on m.net it was in passing. I never posted build or really many pictures there.
Here is the picture/build thread (lots of pic links broken early on sadly).
http://www.miataturbo.net/foru...10844
It is this car (taken this sunday at a local AutoX)

Here is the album of the majority of build type pictures I have
http://s295.photobucket.com/al...tures/

Oh... and so far the Vmount is looking to be ideal. Cruising around and doing pulls... my IATs drop during the entire run. Vs similar miatas setup with the traditional sandwiched setups that stay constant with large ICs or raise over the run with smaller ones. Data so far shows it works.
This iat drop is more dramatic than cruising around due to some heatsoak sitting in the run lanes.


Here is some video for kicks...

Mr.E.G.

don't get me wrong. i'm not doing a sandwhich types setup either. just not a vmount. lol

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Lets not forget airflow to the radiator. Which on a roadcourse built car... also requires lots of thought. Just putting them into the airflow and ducting them doesn't guarantee the car will stay cool. The miata mouth opening isn't very large for packing everything in imo.

Mr.E.G. If you saw my car on m.net it was in passing. I never posted build or really many pictures there.
Here is the picture/build thread (lots of pic links broken early on sadly).
http://www.miataturbo.net/foru...10844
It is this car (taken this sunday at a local AutoX)

Here is the album of the majority of build type pictures I have
http://s295.photobucket.com/al...tures/

Oh... and so far the Vmount is looking to be ideal. Cruising around and doing pulls... my IATs drop during the entire run. Vs similar miatas setup with the traditional sandwiched setups that stay constant with large ICs or raise over the run with smaller ones. Data so far shows it works.
This iat drop is more dramatic than cruising around due to some heatsoak sitting in the run lanes.


Here is some video for kicks...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah, i think i was thinking of another car. maybe you use the same avatar? i know you seem familiar in one way or another.

anyhow, i am equally concerned with having an efficient radiator setup but i have some concept of what type of radiator capacity i need. i have a koyo radiator now and it works great.

i should probably interject and say that my aero setup will be pretty aggressive and i will not be limited by the miata factory bumper inlet. i am an obsessive enthusiast (i suppose that's fitting) of aerodynamics and in that regard I am smarter than the average bear. to put it simply i am supremely confident that i could run a smaller radiator setup and achieve equal or better results than my koyo radiator as it is currently positioned and fed.

when i was making the tongue in cheek comment about your v mount setup i wasn't comparing it to a conventional setup or stating that it was less ideal than the conventional setup i was just implying that it is not the setup i would choose for my specific goals and maybe not so obviously implying that my setup will be far from the conventional arrangement as well.

it seems your setup is working well from a cooling point of view, i just have to juggle another ball or two and make a compromise to get a good mixture of the combined goals.

your car looks like a lot of fun.

evokidvii

get a top to bottom intercooler, where the end tanks are on the top and bottom, the fins are vertical. you can fit a much smaller intercooler, but have better flow and less of a pressure drop across it. Also these types of intercoolers are more effiecient. I have to find the website that sells the cores, when i do i will post it up, you will see how much more airflow you can get through these types.

I would have switched to on of these a while ago, but my student loans are killing me.

splitime

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yeah, i think i was thinking of another car. maybe you use the same avatar? i know you seem familiar in one way or another.

your car looks like a lot of fun.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hope no one else is using the avatar. It's a picture of me... from an old buddies photog class project.

Thanks

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by evokidvii &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a top to bottom intercooler, where the end tanks are on the top and bottom, the fins are vertical. you can fit a much smaller intercooler, but have better flow and less of a pressure drop across it. Also these types of intercoolers are more effiecient. I have to find the website that sells the cores, when i do i will post it up, you will see how much more airflow you can get through these types.

I would have switched to on of these a while ago, but my student loans are killing me. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah i read the book maximum boost about a year ago and the author made it pretty clear that that style was much more efficient. i am certainly leaning toward that style provided i can find one inexpensive enough.

if you can find that website i would appreciate the info.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I hope no one else is using the avatar. It's a picture of me... from an old buddies photog class project.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

i just figured you were going to a kmfdm or nin concert. lol.