<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have never in my life seen a car on crome or uberdata run as good as a car that ive tuned on hondata. when someone shows me, ill retract that statement. i couldnt even open or save a damn bin file in uberdata without getting errors, im not wasting my time when hondata works perfectly. sorry.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I remember reading old posts about you trying to tune with Uberdata and not liking it. But just out of curiosity have you tried tuning with CromePRO before? what about the newer versions of CromePRO which now have IAT/ECT corrections, and a lot of the features that the S300 has?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lastly, i stand behind originators. i dont like when people copy peoples work. ie. i hated it when people copied full race. and i def didnt like people 'borrowing' hondata's code. that alone is enough for me to stand behind companies like hondata, full-race and many others.

you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, just like i am. run whatever you wish. </TD></TR></TABLE>

There are lots of companies out there with their own proprietary ROM editors, and not just for Hondas, but other makes like GM's, Fords, DSM's, Mazdas etc, etc. AFAIK ECU code and ECU hardware is pretty much universal so there aren't a lot of ways to crack the code (programs) and all the hardware is pretty much the same. I'm no ECU chipping expert or expert programmer, but to me Hondata and Crome look to be nothing more then hex editors with fancy GUIs.

Maybe because the GUI or user interface between the two look simliar, many people assume the Hondata code was either stolen or borrowed and used in Crome, but I dont agree with that. I dont read about people making the same assumption with Uberdata but probably because UD looks like a DOS program, but Hondata and Crome have that Windows look to them. So it's easy to assume that one came from the other.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I remember reading old posts about you trying to tune with Uberdata and not liking it. But just out of curiosity have you tried tuning with CromePRO before? what about the newer versions of CromePRO which now have IAT/ECT corrections, and a lot of the features that the S300 has?</TD></TR></TABLE>

you must be mistaken. ive never 'tuned' a car with uberdata or crome.
but i have looked over the software of both. and ive been around a lot of cars that were tuned with the systems, and have not been impressed with their driveability, but im a perfectionst, some people might not mind a couple bugs, but i do.

im not saying dont use it. i use whats best for me, and thats hondata (and aem for some setups that need the extra capability).

i also like having a company supporting the product. when people come to me with big money in their setups, if something should go wrong with the ecu's, hondata will take care of it (ive never had an s200 box go bad). thats another reason i send the people who need their ecu's prepped to hondata. its reduces the chances of you having to waste time working out problems with ecu's not being right. etc.

i am not a programmer or pretend to know anything about it, but from what people that know what they are talking about, and even blake himself, has said they've 'borrowed' code or hondata's approach, which ever you want to call it.

 

Well since the honda rom has everything in the same spot... It is kinda hard to say what was borrowed, what was made up and what not.

All I know is that uberdata and crome have come a long way since I have started using them. I like the DIY approach, but for those with big money setups. It is up to what the tuner is comfortable tuning. So whatever they would say goes.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you must be mistaken. ive never 'tuned' a car with uberdata or crome. but i have looked over the software of both. and ive been around a lot of cars that were tuned with the systems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

From the sound of it you did have some kind of experience with UD though. I just wasn't sure if you ever tried tuning with Crome or even just messing with the program, especially the recent versions.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im not saying dont use it. i use whats best for me, and thats hondata (and aem for some setups that need the extra capability).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont think I mentioned this, but one advantage of CromePRO is the ability for common users to come up with their own plugins with javascript and add it into Crome. The most recent plugin that comes to mind is mind-eracer's expanded boost columns plugin. Before there used to only be 9 vacuum and 7 boost columns. But now with the advanced plugin Crome users can choose between 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15 boost columns (and 9 vacuum). This is one of the main reasons I switched from UD to Crome. Even though I cant program my own plugins, you know there are people out there who can.

Kinda OT too, but Mase since you say you deal mostly with Hondata, does the S300 have auto tune? or are there plans to have the auto tune feature added later on?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boosted Chemist &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I know every one worships the ground you walk on but, why do you think crome is half assed? All the time you see cars making globs of power on crome. My car is by no meaing half assed and im running crome. Sure i dont have enought money to waste hondata or pay for you to tune it. This doesnt make my setup half assed, or anyone's setup half assed. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i agree

 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you Mase.
If you had made the same statement that hondata &gt; AEM, you would have had countless other tuners jumping you. Instead, you chose to pick on the DIY tools, so you just get me.

First off, Uberdata != Crome

Don't even put them in the same sentence as far as I'm concerned. They use different approaches for handling boost. They use (slightly) different approaches for fuel modifiers. Crome has a ton more tools for tweaking things like ECT, IAT, Idle trims. You really can't group them together anymore - it's not fair.

Many of the cars I've tuned with Crome run significantly better than Hondata S200 cars I've done. Crome had gear correction before Hondata. Crome has better support for ITBs than Hondata. Crome had expanded table resolution before S300. Hondata unquestionably were the original OBD1 code hackers. Shouldn't the innovators have fixed the numerous things their users and tuners complained about (ECT, IAT, Gear to name 3) in a more timely manner? These known problems with S200 that were not fixed are a large part of what differentiated Neptune initially! How come the DIY crowd was able to add support for IAT and ECT corrections in a matter of months compared to the year+ it took Hondata? Hmm? Besides, S300 = S200 with a CPLD ROM emulator and a USB interface. Woo ******* hoo. Makes it easier for them to copy protect their **** and charge their existing customer base $600 for the upgrade to features that could be added to S200 with nothing more than ROM editing. I really hope that customer service comes ahead of greed, otherwise I might have to make a Crome plugin to allow S200 users IAT and ECT correction...

An example of what I consider to be a "quality" car done with Crome:
94 GSR, 30+mpg DELIVERING PIZZA, 12.8@118 on street tires, more streetraces than I can count. In one piece, running strong, happy owner.
Driveability is something I pride myself on - ask the owner of any car I've tuned.

Mase, reserve your judgement until you see the tools in the right hands (or use them yourself).

 

yeah plugins would be a cool capability for those who can do it. and to reiterate, im not saying these programs have come a long way, its just hondata is staying ahead of them.

yes hondata has autotune feature. and so does aem.

i dont use it because i can tune it faster without it.

 

I'm starting to get this feeling that Crome is getting too complicated for people who are not capable of putting time into figuring everything out on their own. It only gets more and more confusing with all of the plug-in's coming in from a handful of people. It wouldn't be so bad if there was documentation, but the documentation for Crome parameters is non-existent and the intuitiveness is still kinda vague, even for somebody like me who is familiar with the aspects of engine management. At least the Hondata units have decent documentation or have features that are intuitive to use, and just enough parameters to make it comprehensive, but at the same time not too complex.

 

hondata was busy with k series dave, i dont blame them either. i would have done the same thing.

fly down here, ill give u a car and u can tune it as fast as you can on whatever you want, then give it to me with hondata s300 and ill tune it faster, better and more complete. end of story. (hah, j/k no war)


oh and many cases, hondata &gt; aem for some cars.

 

I'd love to try sometime dude. That sounds fun. Plus a vacation in Florida... *******, *******, *******. Definately not doing it during winter.

 

dave, you're the only male cheerleader id let walk through my front door.

 

Mase, just remember, if you attach something like the ostrich.. it basically makes a CromePro using ecu into a S300 (since the s300 was updates and mainly the standalone ability of it)

I'd guess that since the lower budget tuners use the freeware, not a ton of them have as much tuning experience and that can explain the lower quality tunes you talk about. (ie: my level of tuning... will NOT equal yours. I have no where near the experience)

I'd also say that a race tuning thingy is kinda silly, you guys will tune fastest with what you are most comfortable with. And you'll both extract as much power as your SKILLS can pull out... not the software.


As was said... Hondata S300 = CromePro (with ostrich strapped on)

For the budget people... i can get full emulation on an ecu (ostrich attached) for 175. And then another couple bucks gets me all the goodies with CromePro. For about half the price of the S300 unit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I might have to make a Crome plugin to allow S200 users IAT and ECT correction... </TD></TR></TABLE>


I wish you would.

Am I correct that these options are not and will not be available for the S200?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm starting to get this feeling that Crome is getting too complicated for people who are not capable of putting time into figuring everything out on their own. It only gets more and more confusing with all of the plug-in's coming in from a handful of people. It wouldn't be so bad if there was documentation, but the documentation for Crome parameters is non-existent and the intuitiveness is still kinda vague, even for somebody like me who is familiar with the aspects of engine management.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. I feel that Crome is getting closer to having a complete package, but they are still far away from Hondata. To me Uberdata is the simplest of them all as all you have to do is download it and follow a simple how to make a basemap thread and they still throw in datalogging for free. Now obviously all of them take some skill to truly tune them but once you are up and running on a basemap tuning is pretty similar between them. You look at Crome and you are bombarded with is this compatible with P72? Do I have to have to use P30 code? So I have to uninstall this plugin and then install this plugin just to have boost rows on a P72? I have to pay to datalog? How do I get more boost columns? I personally wish there was a simple Crome version to download with plugins that work integrated into the software that are compatible with everything and a simple guide to make your first basemap. Once I see that I might be willing to pay for the software, but until then if I want to pay I will go with Hondata and let Mase tune it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by King Tut33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree. I feel that Crome is getting closer to having a complete package, but they are still far away from Hondata. To me Uberdata is the simplest of them all as all you have to do is download it and follow a simple how to make a basemap thread and they still throw in datalogging for free. Now obviously all of them take some skill to truly tune them but once you are up and running on a basemap tuning is pretty similar between them. You look at Crome and you are bombarded with is this compatible with P72? Do I have to have to use P30 code? So I have to uninstall this plugin and then install this plugin just to have boost rows on a P72? I have to pay to datalog? How do I get more boost columns? I personally wish there was a simple Crome version to download with plugins that work integrated into the software that are compatible with everything and a simple guide to make your first basemap. Once I see that I might be willing to pay for the software, but until then if I want to pay I will go with Hondata and let Mase tune it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It takes a little research, etc...the rewards are well worth the effort put in.. Alot of people take for granted how "spoon fed" our options are...

 

IMO cromepro blows s300 out of the water as far as price and what you get for your money. Yes with the diy stuff you have to keep up to date with the software and plugins as far as what works together and what doesn't, but thats it really. Cromepro is every bit as capable as s300. It has ECT corrections, advanced idle corrections, IAT corrections at different loads, expanded boost tables as mentioned, a great datalogging interface, etc. and with Ostrich you can upload changes in realtime in an instant. I haven't used s300 yet, but i have tuned with kpro and the uploads are much slower sometimes(particuarly the first upload after opening the program) than with the ostrich...not to mention the car goes into limp mode for a second.

Oh and for the s200....its not even in the same ballpark as crome now.

They are both great programs, but since i'm a poor college student i will stick with my diy stuff and do a little bit of research on the software if i have to

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm starting to get this feeling that Crome is getting too complicated for people who are not capable of putting time into figuring everything out on their own. It only gets more and more confusing with all of the plug-in's coming in from a handful of people. It wouldn't be so bad if there was documentation, but the documentation for Crome parameters is non-existent and the intuitiveness is still kinda vague, even for somebody like me who is familiar with the aspects of engine management. At least the Hondata units have decent documentation or have features that are intuitive to use, and just enough parameters to make it comprehensive, but at the same time not too complex.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

(im not pointing this reply directly at you, but you did bring up a few points)

Personally, I feel that Crome is very easy to use.
The plugin system is a huge plus, but its not something beginners need to know about right away. All the parameters are pretty much common sense, if your familiar with basic tuning aspects. I wouldnt say there is lack of support either, since anything you could want to know is covered on the forums. And the great thing about it is that 99% of the Crome userbase is willing to help out a new user with questions.

 

Hondata is waste of money when crome will do the same thing. I can't even understand why people would spend money on Hondata anymore with all the better/cheaper options there are. You can use the money you saved by going with crome and buy yourself a good clutch and exhaust for your turbo car.

 

I don't think everyone is compairing apples to apples (max performance & max value). Seems that the people that know their respective areas say: hondata offers great performance in the hands of the highly experienced, cromepro offers the best value if you can use it to it's potential, uberdata the cheapest for those willing to wade though the forum to understand it.

I look at it in from the perspective of value. I can't afford hondata, let alone AEM. If I can get 80% of the performance/streetability of cromepro with uberdata (for free), then I'll use it. I'd much rather buy a backup vitara/eagle sohc block & tranny than pay for software.


If I had the cash for a perfect honda setup, I'd be spending it on a sr20det'd 240.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think everyone is compairing apples to apples (max performance & max value). Seems that the people that know their respective areas say: hondata offers great performance in the hands of the highly experienced, cromepro offers the best value if you can use it to it's potential, uberdata the cheapest for those willing to wade though the forum to understand it.

I look at it in from the perspective of value. I can't afford hondata, let alone AEM. If I can get 80% of the performance/streetability of cromepro with uberdata (for free), then I'll use it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Only 2 issues I have with what you offered.
1. CromePro offers all that Hondata does, they both use the honda ECU, s300 emulates vs chip (but Crome also can do that with Ostrich), etc...
2. Crome (free) can do almost everything that Pro can, and you can tune to the same level, it just makes you datalot through 2ndary means and such.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by King Tut33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since you can't spell Crome right and obviously haven't read anything about it I say you pay the money for Hondata. I don't think you are ready for Uberdata or Crome. Don't be clueless and leave everything in the hands of a tuner. Do your research and make up your own mind.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree, pay someone to do it for you. Your not ready for crome or uber

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hondata s300 greatly surpasses any oem ecu based engine management system. </TD></TR></TABLE>

so crome and uber don't get the job done?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RAven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

so crome and uber don't get the job done?</TD></TR></TABLE>

they do, just like the FMU does

woot

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they do, just like the FMU does

woot</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lol, joo just don't want the Hdata market shrinking since they require tuners

 

worst comeback ever.

try again.

ps. then again, i dont expect much of any of you.....besides joseph **** boy davis and dave i pretend to be a pimp blundar blundell.