Bailhatch

D16z6 stock head, srps, eagles, studs. 9.2:1 comp.

How will either of these turbos perform on this motor? Do these share a huge efficancy range like the hx35? I'm concerned with spool up because I do like to autox but I need to be able to hunt down street bikes/"sports" cars too. can anyone make an educated guess as to the T3 equlivant of these turbines? Hp goal is somewhere between 300-350. thanks

Bailhatch

can anyone share some info about the hx30 or 25?

Joseph Davis

I have HX30 going on my LS, not truly sure about exactly which turbine housing it has or spool characteristics... you can PM Viren, I got it off him, and he could give you details.

I know the HX25 is too small - on the 1.8 liter Sunbird turbos they start spooling at 1500 rpms. Turbine housing restriction will definitely be an issue with that one.

Bailhatch

What are your Hp goals with your hx30? I really only want one if it has the broad efficiency range like the hx35 otherwise I'm just gonna get a mid sized t3/to4e.

just found a few bits of info on the SDS site;

HX30 470lb/min - good up to 30psi and spools very quickly (whatever that means)

HX35 530+lb/min
One ford 2.3 guy is running 35-45psi on one of these

so what kind of HP does 470 lbs/min translate into on a D16z6?

Joseph Davis

Rule of thumb, most of the HX series is good for up to a 3:1 pressure differential before they get unefficient. HX30 is like a highly efficient T3/04E, rated at similar power - gains may be moot because the turbine housing on the one I have looks a bit tiny, and would act like quite a restriction... which is OK, I plan on changing manifold designs from a merge collector feeding turbine restriction to a merge collector feeding a large wastegate, in order to reduce TIP and soak up some high efficiency.

Going by the numbers from SDS, HX30 is good for 500 crank hp... which I don't think is quite true, can't remember for sure as it's been a while since I read up on them. Holset's site rates them by lb/hr... HX35 is 60 lb/hr, very roughly 600 crank, good luck hittting that figure with the restrictive turbine 12 cm^2 in a conventional setup, though - swap up to 14 or 16, IMO.

I'm going to say, off the top of my head, HX30 is good for 380-420 whp with good efficiency. Depending on your needs, might be what you are looking for - they go very inexpensive from some of the Holset dealers, FWIW.

Bailhatch

oh, cool. thanks for all the info. I think the small turbine will be OK for me. Hopefully it will be auto-x-able. I may have found some for about 50 each so it will be worth it to try. If it doesn't feel how I want then I have a nice manifold,turbo,Dp to sell and make some money, so either way I'll be happy.

I guess those figures I found are bunk. damn internet BS.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">quite a restriction... which is OK, I plan on changing manifold designs from a merge collector feeding turbine restriction to a merge collector feeding a large wastegate, in order to reduce TIP and soak up some high efficiency.
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can you explain this part to me. Your going to have the WG at the end of the merge collector and the turbo will be the 'secondary' exhaust path in a way? this is to get better flow at full boost, no? TIP?

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I may have found some for about 50 each so it will be worth it to try. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hook a brother up!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">can you explain this part to me. Your going to have the WG at the end of the merge collector and the turbo will be the 'secondary' exhaust path in a way? this is to get better flow at full boost, no? TIP?</TD></TR></TABLE>

TIP, exactly. We know from racecars (!:1 TIP:MAP... or better) that high pressures aren't needed to maintain spool, but they help lots in getting quick spool. Setup described allows for keeping your cake and eating it, too.

Bailhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hook a brother up!
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I'm still working on it. these damn ford turbo guys are hard to deal with because they spend too much time exaggerating how much boost they run and trying to tell me what I need to do with my car. Either way, turbo buddy at NAPA (yes he is ASE certified, sheesh) says once he takes a break from running 40 psi on alcohol in his street car he will give me the leads I need to get a few of these...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
TIP, exactly. We know from racecars (!:1 TIP:MAP... or better) that high pressures aren't needed to maintain spool, but they help lots in getting quick spool. Setup described allows for keeping your cake and eating it, too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

dope, is this cake eater built yet? I want to see this trailerpark beast!

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm still working on it. these damn ford turbo guys are hard to deal with because they spend too much time exaggerating how much boost they run and trying to tell me what I need to do with my car. Either way, turbo buddy at NAPA (yes he is ASE certified, sheesh) says once he takes a break from running 40 psi on alcohol in his street car he will give me the leads I need to get a few of these... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, boss at the shop won't shut up about how he runs 19 psi non-IC on his 2.3T/Merkur like that is significant. Well, offering to race him at 7 psi in the CRX used to, when the CRX ran. 2.3T is a badass motor, though... been in Dave's Merkur when the wastegate jammed and non-IC boost was running 26-27 psi, he wouldn't pull over to fix it or go gentle on the car, and I quote "it won't blow, I'm just not making good power because the charge temps are too hot."

Let me know if you manage to wade through the 2.3T ego ;p

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dope, is this cake eater built yet? I want to see this trailerpark beast! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, I'm a cake boy, now am I?

Sorry, current manifold is typical merge collector tubie feeding turbine restriction. Hope to have her upgraded in 6-9 months, too busy trying to get the CRX running before my birthday next month to change plans/setup right now. Rest assured the manifold design has been tried in the past... frankly, merge collectoring wastegate and turbine equally is what they were doing in F1 back in the day, which gets engineering consensus as "best design," but my concession to packaging in an LS swapped CRX and most other Honduh chassis with limited space is prioritizing wastegate placement at the end of the merge collector, and turbo is placed wherever expedient.

PS, got Blundar drunk Thursday night, big Holset discussion. HX35/HY35 don't come alive and hit efficiency until 1.5 PR (pressure ratio). I'm fairly certain Hoggy's HX35 B16 wasn't making the blingest power and had turbo longevity problems because he was only running 7 psi... Speed Phreak can attest to having less traction on his 2.0 LS with Quaife/alignment/HX35/12 psi than he did with bent suspension/open diff/.57 T3/04E/18 psi. In order to hit desired pressure differentials, the poorer flowing Honduh heads seem to be ideal.

Bailhatch

Just remember; if the guy behind the counter is ASE certified AND drives a 2.3, he is an expert in ANY automotive field. I'll keep working on him for the hx 30s, he claimes they are abundent and cheap...we'll see if my hip waders can get me throught the BS.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
"it won't blow, I'm just not making good power because the charge temps are too hot."
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classic, i guess every village has one.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Oh, I'm a cake boy, now am I?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
fruit i'm sure...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
PS, got Blundar drunk Thursday night, big Holset discussion. HX35/HY35 don't come alive and hit efficiency until 1.5 PR (pressure ratio). I'm fairly certain Hoggy's HX35 B16 wasn't making the blingest power and had turbo longevity problems because he was only running 7 psi... Speed Phreak can attest to having less traction on his 2.0 LS with Quaife/alignment/HX35/12 psi than he did with bent suspension/open diff/.57 T3/04E/18 psi. In order to hit desired pressure differentials, the poorer flowing Honduh heads seem to be ideal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ahh, Drunk car discussions. I used to do that until I started hating everyone good times.

Can you explain how running 7 psi damaged Hoggys turbo?

I hope the HX30 likes the pressure diff on my Z6, any input on that?

Speaking of Quaifes, got your obx lsd in yet? I'm setting cash aside now as long as i see a few more success stories like that 3rd gear stripping gangsta

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll keep working on him for the hx 30s, he claimes they are abundent and cheap...</TD></TR></TABLE>

For the life of me, I have no hookup on turbo diesel generators, which is what you normally find them on.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fruit i'm sure...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, you're an *** tuna.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you explain how running 7 psi damaged Hoggys turbo?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm pretty confident he was running it against the surge limit on the compressor map, B16 and 5000 rpm spool makes for a borderline situation... you need to tune for highest possible EGTs at boost transition to help spool the turbo, which wasn't done.

The "poorer" flowing head on your Z6 (compared to B VTEC) is going to put you in a sweet spot on your compressor map since you require more boost than a higher flowing B VTEC head to make the same power.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Speaking of Quaifes, got your obx lsd in yet? I'm setting cash aside now as long as i see a few more success stories like that 3rd gear stripping gangsta</TD></TR></TABLE>

Danny (seller) emailed my tues or wed about the LSD being shipped; there was a holdup on my Paypal payment because I suck. Takes ~6 days via ground from Cali, hopefully I'll have it soon, want my car together for my birthday.

I know I'm going out on a limb on this one... I could tell from the first confirmation that OBX LSD is a quaife knock off that it would hold together in a big power situation, and that the problem would be the quality of metal used for it and long term metal fatigue - which hasn't been proven yet. I advise nobody to hop on any bandwagon until a couple guys have beaten on them for at least 6 months.

Bailhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well, you're an *** tuna.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

nice to see that there are still some true romantics out there
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm pretty confident he was running it against the surge limit on the compressor map, B16 and 5000 rpm spool makes for a borderline situation... you need to tune for highest possible EGTs at boost transition to help spool the turbo, which wasn't done.
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i see. not enough timing & too rich in the boost transition perhaps. So if was running it at a little higher boost he would have been more in the meat of the efficiency range right?

I'll be stoked if the hx30 works as well as you have indicated. I'm hoping this will give me the fat area under the curve I want. 4k rpm of good pull on the street without falling off up top is my ultimate goal.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I know I'm going out on a limb on this one... I could tell from the first confirmation that OBX LSD is a quaife knock off that it would hold together in a big power situation, and that the problem would be the quality of metal used for it and long term metal fatigue - which hasn't been proven yet. I advise nobody to hop on any bandwagon until a couple guys have beaten on them for at least 6 months.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your right, time is the only real test. Just as i've seen some local turbo cars pull like crazy and last all of a month, this LSD needs some serious hours of good beating to make it on my car. I guess your soon to be one of the testers for the H-T community. thanks why not bring it to a metallurgist to have the alloy tested? that should give some insight into it's long term durability too.

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i see. not enough timing & too rich in the boost transition perhaps. So if was running it at a little higher boost he would have been more in the meat of the efficiency range right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, maybe depending how you look at it, and yes.

Think about the reason no... retarded timing fires AF later and causes it to still be doing most of it's burning when the exhaust valves opens, and you flow a larger than normal portion of heat out your exhaust instead of using it to drive your crankshaft.

Think about the reason maybe (somewhat OT, but relevant as it is a common misconception).... while you are correct about running the AF in the chamber too rich, most ppl look at wideband readings and think that tells you a single solitary thing about AFRs in the combustion chamber. They do not. Wideband readings read exhaust oxygen content, period, and have no way of telling how much oxygen is due to factors such as blowthru due to overlap. Or, AF still burning as it exits the chamber, due to ignition or mechanical timing (cam gears), which means the exhaust oxygen content reads differently from actual combustion chamber AFRs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by builthatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your right, time is the only real test. Just as i've seen some local turbo cars pull like crazy and last all of a month, this LSD needs some serious hours of good beating to make it on my car. I guess your soon to be one of the testers for the H-T community. thanks why not bring it to a metallurgist to have the alloy tested? that should give some insight into it's long term durability too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Already talked to Sam Barnes at AB Tech, my old CNC instructor. Will be testing rockwell hardness, and getting his educated guess as to alloy and it's suitability for the application. Frankly, some engineer - or more importantly, an educated machinist who actually knows what's going on - had to sit down and make the first prototype clone, pay attention to the stresses involved, etc. Even if the alloy isn't as good as Quaife's (I'd be VERY surprised if it was), I have a decent suspicion that it's a decent material that will withstand some abuse. Great for budget racers who don't put a lot of miles on their drag car, or for poorer enthusiasts with lower power levels looking for Quaife-level performance.

Then again, I might be an ignorant jackass with a shattered piece of OBX crapola taking out his new gearbox. Yay!

Bailhatch

Good points about the AFR being different depending upon where the fuel is burned. Would this lead you to beleive combustion chamber AFR might skew (relative to exhaust wideband) depending on ignition timing? which way would it go if so?

So what you suggest for tuning for higher EGTs in boost transition? I have been adding a few degrees from -5vac to about 3psi on the cars I have "tuned". I shoot for around 13.0:1 up to 2 psi then 12.5 up to 5 and 12-11.5 or so after that. these two things seem to really help quicken spool in my limited experiance. I like how i jacked my own thread here i'm pissed!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Then again, I might be an ignorant jackass with a shattered piece of OBX crapola taking out his new gearbox. Yay!</TD></TR></TABLE>

excuse me but you are supposed to be 'seething' not ignorant. Are you gonna possibly destroy a B series tranny? man I love my D when it comes to breaking ****