Hey guys, this would be my first official boost build, every car Ive had has been n/a.

With that being said I bought an ef sedan shell from a friend, and have decided to throw some things I have laying around together. Something that I could drive to work a couple days a week. Id like some opinions from some people here.

Motor possibilities:

Ill either wind up buying a b series motor with css, arp studs, decent rods, and forged pistons. Or assemble something with the things laying around. The things i have are as follows.

B20 block (thought about css'ing it)

gsr block

Eagle 95mm crank

89mm oem crank

Crower I beam rods ls/b20

Gsr head, full skunk2 valve train kit

holset hx35

BRMS ram horn manifold

Golden eagle intake manifold

Skunk2 70mm throttle body

ARP head studs

P72 with neptune licensing from RLZ

92-93 gsr cable transmission

Moroso 5.5 qt baffled pan

4 port catch can

etc misc little things






There are alot of things left to complete a hypothetical setup, but if anyone has any input for a simple cost effective setup i'd appreciate it. Again, Im not shooting for big hp numbers and the fuel readily available is 93 octane (no e85,e87 where I live), just wanting something to cruise around in so I can fully focus on my other projects and not lose interest or cut corners on them due to premature gratification, Thanks.

 

Sounds like it could be a little beast for sure, I have a b20 myself but was skeptical on whether or not to do the CSS treatment. Thought there was something about needing to increase bore by .25 for it, making already thin sleeves paper thin...then again he guarantees them to low 400 wheel range, but then again the b18s are warrantied to only 500 yet there are people running closer to 1000, so I'm sure they may be some headroom even with the b20.

You could always run a meth kit as well for a little added safety on your sleeves, or run that gsr block I just saw you have. Oem cranks works fine as well

 

Yes I agree, Ive only seen a few threads with people who had the cncwerx treatment done with b20's and that they are only warrantied for 400whp. I just dont understand the concept of 100 less whp warranty due to an inferior design. Its either a gracious or underestimated way of going about it, but Jeff seems to have it well figured out; plus there is plenty of b16/b18 guys to prove the product works.

However for no more power than I want/need to make I think it'd be beneficial to css the b20 and take advantage of that little bit of extra displacement, but Im debating even dabbling with the stroker crank.

I guess the whole point of this thread is to ask people which would be the more beneficial/efficient platform to start with given the misc parts I already have.

 

Well I mean, it kinda depends on your power goal... hx35 will get you in the 400s even on 93, which mean you're in territory where you probably will want CSS for the b20 block.

However, there are cases (such as b20vtecvillian) where b20 stock blocks have taken exceptional amounts of abuse, in villain's case 450whp with e85 (once again, meth injection can be the next best thing in your case)

So I guess it's something like this: Use b20 block, spend money on CSS and have it be safe or take a bit of a risk and go with water/meth injection to help cool combustion, helping protect the cylinder walls. I'd imagine css is probably full proof up to 500whp, not sure about the meth injection but I would imagine 400s are perhaps doable, b20s are a gray area with some suggesting that some of the blocks came out stronger than others, while others say the only ones that break are with bad tunes.

Or you could just use the b18 block, sure you lose some low end torque but you save money on CSS and could easily meth inject that too later on and make quite a load of power, especially on that hx35. Really the choice is up to you, if it were me I would just decide how much of a risk I'm willing to take and either b18 it or b20 with meth injection, can't say CSS is a bad choice though

 

^^If it were up to me Id probably css and water meth either block I decide to go with. Thats just how I am, plus id like something to drive to work a few days a week, I have a 2 hour round trip commute, and would absolutely hate for it to die on me that far away from home. So reliability is the key here, but it has to be achieved with the things I have laying around and a little bit of work.

If I cant attain that, Ill sell all the little stuff and throw a simple na motor on it to beat on haha.

 

read through the css warranty requirements, you have to provide a dyno sheet proving it was tuned and i think there were a few other things you needed to have to make the warranty valid. the issue with the b20 sleeves is the 1 piece design of the iron sleeve inserts. they are less flexible and crack due to rpm or knocking. the css will support the sleeve as its a closed deck better than the oem open deck. its not a thick or thin issue.

looking at your parts list, here is what i recommend

css that b20, run it at the smallest bore possible after cleaning up any cylinder out of round.
use the 89mm crank and those rods you have.
take your pick of 2618 piston forgings from the top name brands. shoot for something that will yield between 9.5 and 10:1. nothing wrong with having the skirts coated if they arent from the factory it really quieted down my piston slap. i wouldnt use a piston to wall any less than .004"
itr/ctr cams in that gsr head
not sure of the plenum size on that ge intake manifold, but it seems like you want to use a smaller tb with a bigger plenum and vice versa so you dont have a velocity drop and issues filling it which could manifest as turbo lag
oem oil pan. i know a few people with the moroso and its a leak factory around the gasket


400whp on 93 is a perfectly attainable goal and with the lighter weight of the ef chassis it will be nice and fast. no need for any meth injector etc. the more cohesive the parts the more efficient and the less likely to knock or run poorly the motor will be healthier and last longer.

besides this you still have a clutch, injectors ,mounts, wastegate, and a few other items that will be a few hundred bucks a pop to deal with. even though you have a good headstart on parts, it still adds up rather quickly

 

Okay, so going with the 2618 is totally more beneficial in than long run than say a 4032 alloy piston? Sorry Ive only ever used 4032 pistons because Ive only ever built simple n/a setups. Indeed the 2618 is stronger, but you wouldnt think the 4032 would be more versatile especially for a car that will not be driven much? But better to be safe than sorry. Would you advise using an upgraded wrist pin, or no point?

I was thinking around 9.5-10:1 myself with gsr or type r cams. Car will be tuned via neptune and 93 octane by Howard at RLZ, if it ever happens haha. But he tunes all my cars and Ive had very outcomes.

I have the little stuff like injectors, pump, mounts, clutch etc.

As with the Moroso pan from my experience, the only gasket I can get to seal on a moroso is an oem honda gasket or wire mesh reinforced rubber gasket ( cant remember where I bought it or who makes it, but it was a great gasket. Just like the Ford Powerstrokes use. ) Anything else i.e felpro, vatozone crap never seals.

Thanks for your advise.

 

Simply not true, b20's have weak sleeves because of
A) Siamese design (Edit: meant to say, the one piece is part of the reason, my bad )
B) They are significantly thinner than b18 sleeves, especially in between the cylinders. Even Tony the tiger has mentioned the weakness of b20 sleeves due to being so thin. It's really not rocket science

That being said, I can almost guarantee you that if they are giving warranties for low 400s, that they expect it to handle even higher than that. Hence why I brought up b18 guys running closer to 1000 even though those are warrantied only for 500, I'm sure his b20 would probably be good up to 500wheel.

Meth injection reduces knock, cools the combustion temps which will help preserve the sleeves, and gives you a bit more octane. Definitely not a bad choice considering he doesn't have e85, and with an hx35 he'll be able to turn up the boost even higher allowing the turbo to be more efficient (holsets love psi)

 

You need to stop nut riding and actually get some experience Geis. If your hero really did say that, then he would be wrong. It has been a known fact for a long time the sleeves are not thinner. The thinner B20 sleeve **** started in the early 2000's and was proved false in the mid 2000's... and a decade later due to the magic of the Internet, it's still being regurgitated...

If I must, I can dig up pictures of various engine blocks from my personal library and show they are the extremely similar in thickness. The reason I say similar, is because the way all Honda sleeves are cast leave them susceptible to thickness differences around the circumference of the bore. The true problem with B20s is like you mentioned - monocast sleeves. It leads to hot spots and they are more prone to cracking at low RPM detonation than anything. No Honda sleeve really likes being pushed to 1mm overbore.

Tony is a smart guy, but from time to time (like all of us) he is wrong (if he even said that). Thats the good and the bad of the interweb, it brings all of us "know-it-alls" together to dissect each other and we can all become smarter together. It separates the bullshitters from the experienced.

TO OP:
Now, in this dumb hillbilly's experience, you definitely want a 4032 forging for longevity. It is much closer (by comparison) to a stock type piston than a 2618 forging. The bigger the PTW clearance you run the shorter the life of the engine, it really is that simple. 4032 allows you to run a tighter PTW clearance for all the cold start-ups you will do and is only 10 - 20% weaker (depends on exact forgings) than a 2618 counterpart. This is another myth that stems back before I was even born... it just won't go away that 4032 is weak, when it isn't. It's all about perspective.

BUT, in a catastrophic failure, the 2618 is softer and will deform easier. This is negligible IMO, because usually when things get that bad, all is lost anyways. What has been changing over the past few years is people in more forms of racing are switching to 4032 forgings. Of course, every type of piston has its place, but if I were building a street car or something to DD, there is no question it would be cast first unless it's an extreme N/A or not N/A at all, then it would be 4032. High HP or track dedicated cars - 2618.

I just wanted to sum this up by saying, different types of builds will require different things: loose or tight clearances or even a mixture, longevity or all out power, emissiions or not, etc... many things should go into why you choose what you do. If you are buulding an engine, you are most likely doing it for a specific purpose. Take the time to do it right... just my opinion, take it or leave it.

 

Youre dumb bro

The sleeves are a lot thinner on b20s where the cylinders meet

Where they dont meet they are the same thickness

I have 2 b20s in my garage right now and 2 gsr and 2 ls blocks


Right now


Not in my cousins, sisters, uncle, best friends side bitchs house

Idk if they are weaker but they are thinner

 

LOL... no. The distance may be "thinner" but the actual sleeve liners are absolutely not. If you actually have them then you know exactly what I am talking about. Where the sleeves meet it is much thicker on the liner... it's monocast... it HAS to be. Guess I will have to post my pictures afterall huh, even though there are thousands on the Internet for you to copy already.

 

Here, since I think you have a secret obsession with seeing my stuff I found a few picures. Yes these are mine, if you want more angles just ask. Sorry, all my spare blocks are sleeved aside from some D-series, a B16, and B18C. The only LS style blocks I touch are B20s...

I have one of a B20, and to support my very uneven cylinder thickness claims a B18C, and finally a B16. All of these are engines I built for myself, I have many many more but I think it's out of context for all intended purposes. Enjoy!

 

Is the second photo the GSR block? That is a crazy amount of material thickness variation from sleeve to sleeve, almost as if one bore is larger than the other. The B16 looks fairly consistent.

The few B20 blocks I've had always appeared to have dead on uniformity but I didn't look much into it, from what I can tell it has always been the siamese nature of the liner that lead to failures

 

Guess I just imagined it then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Yes, it's a early USDM B18C1 block that isn't uniform in the picture. It was bored 0.5mm over and had PR3 style pistons installed (N/A setup). I have included the full picture below, which isn't the best due to the oil, but I never intended to use it for anything other than memories... It's one of probably 1/2 a dozen I have seen / owned that weren't uniform liners. That B16 is actually a very early JDM B16A block.

Yes, if the failure isn't somewhere on the side like a regular block it almost always happen on the thickest part where the two rounds liners meet. A quick Google image search will show tons of these types of pictures.

All this just goes to show the inconsistencies you can find and aside from tune, could be why one person can make stock sleeves last and another person with an identical setup blows up way short.

 

Thank you sir, I was thinking 4032 as well, tighter tolerances more than longevity and still alot stronger than a cast piston. Plus its all I ever used, and am fairly comfortable with that.

Ive used supertech pistons for n/a setups, anyone have good experience with their 9.5-10.1 piston for turbo? They are pretty budget friendly, and the last set I used for n/a had a nice coating on them.

And yes Im aware the b20 use a 1 piece sleeve, the liners like you said aren't thinner, just the adjacent relativity from cylinder to cylinder is thinner compared to any other b series, but duh its a 1 piece sleeve.

 

so i guess i initially recommended a 2618 forging with the whole "thinking ahead" or looking for more power in the future route. there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 4032 piston for a build that will be limited to pump gas (non ethanol). the tighter ptw is certainly beneficial for motor longevity which seems like a priority of yours with that long commute rather than all out power.

you are certainly off to a good start especially with the parts you have already.

side note, ive also seen factory non b20 blocks have visually noticeable differences in iron sleeve liner thickness between different cylinders in the same block.

 

Hence the photos I posted, there is quite simply less material between the cylinders on the b20 than the b18, this is an infallible statement.

Less material = Less structural integrity and less heat dissipation. To say that this also doesn't lead to cracking is ignorant at best.

 

Right, either way I appreciate your input. I mean do i want the car to make power, yes but a conservative tune with reliability is mostly what Im after, but dont get me wrong if the setup makes less than 300whp on low boost ill be a tad disappointed haha.

Okay Im going to a buddy's house tomorrow, his measuring equipment is much more accurate than mine. So we are going to measure all the parts I have listed, and see what numbers we come up with. Hopefully everything besides the cranks are good. We plan to use all oem honda bearings.

If so, Im going to send the b20 off for css, and order the rods and pistons for the 95mm crank. I figure with that crank itll help on the low end of the power band for putting from stop light to stop light out of boost.

Another thing, the hx35 I have is divided, and Mike from BRMS (well, when they were still a shop) has a used open flange ram horn for a good price, Im thinking about running that and knife edging the divided exhaust housing to prevent hot spot cracking. Anybody have any concerns about this? read a lot of mixed comments in numerous threads about it.

Thanks, Ill get some pics up of the goldmine, or potential junk stash tomorrow.

 

**update

Okay guys so I found an LA sleeved 84mm ls bare block for stupid cheap. Hoping to meet up with the seller to measure everything. From there I may use the 95mm crank with b16 length rods, and a set of supertech 4032 10:1 pistons.