blackeg

finally got around to assembling my bottom end yesterday and i noticed some issues with the rings im feeling a little uneasy about. these are je pro seal rings, 84.5mm bore. the rings are marked n150, which makes me think they are hastings rings which ive seen marked n50.

1st concern: the 2nd or middle ring doesnt have the little nape or notch on the bottom of it to help scrape oil. its just solid like the top ring, but a different color and softer metal. they also came out big out of the package, .027 gap but its consistent so i went with it.

2nd concern: by hand the pistons seem to take extra effort to move in the bore. it seems normal with a socket on the crank bolt. when moving in the bore it seems to be scuffing the cyl walls making some vertical lines. here are some pics. keep in mind this happened only being turned over literally 3 times. should i be worried or is something wrong? during assembly the engine will be rotated over numerous more times before it runs i dont want to ruin the hone before it gets oiled while running




id like to get this checked over before i bolt the head on and use a headgasket

blackeg

Up

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

.027 is wayyyyyyy too big lol

sleepencivic

might have the wrong ring set contact them agian!

Dc4LsTeG

iTrader: (7)

Mine came out to .024" on my 81.5mm bore

OP I have a set of supertech rings and 2 sets of Nippon rings and they are all stamped n50, just the supertechs are a different material. Can you post a pic of your rings?

As for the black lines from the rings, I got a couple of them also from when I gapped the rings. Im pretty sure its fine I think its just the coating/color off the ring but I'm not positive.

blackeg

it will be fine. my bore is 84.5 and my last setup was at .026 on the 2nd ring and it had excellent compression and leakdown.

part number on the box is jxc0f4-3327-0, lot # 040908-721.

i cant get pics of the rings currently they are already on the pistons installed in the bore.

kbouchard1092

i have the same rings, i remember having the same N50 mark. The marks are there just ot make sure youre pointing the down correct i belive. Also if i remeber right there was some type of coating on the rings. Thats prob why its scoring the walls...i dont think its nothing i would worry about....once you fire it up and get some cylinder pressure the coating should wear off and wear the cross hatches down and create a good seal.... Mine seem to work great!

I went with .019-.020 first rings and .23-.024 second ring...my machine shop recommended that for high boost. They filed the rings for me since i had the block sleeved, i sent my pistons and rings with the block so they could match each piston per cylinder

Dc4LsTeG

iTrader: (7)

OP said his are stamped n150 not n50. Thats what I figured the black marks were from to, just a coating. How are thos ring gaps working for you on how much HP? Because I have my rings gapped to those same exact specs

blackeg

the gaps are fine. ive been using similar gaps on 84-84.5mm boost motors for a few years now. never had a gap related issue. my catchcan stays pretty empty especially since i moved my vent lines to the valve cover from the block. leakdowns are 10% or less and my compression has been keeping in the 220 psi range on about 10:1 static. my power is pretty low considering, usually 400-500ish.this is also with .0045ptw. id rather build it looser in case i up the boost in the future.

Dc4LsTeG

iTrader: (7)

Sorry that was directed towards the guy above me since hes running top ring .019 second ring .024

racebum

i don't know why they don't make all these file fit rings. people use different PWC for different applications. do not understand this one size fits all ringset. just make them all on the large side

blackeg

are the rings coated with anything that would have worn off causing a little extra wear?



they are file fit, at least the top rings are. they came out of the box at between .016 and .018 gap and i needed to go a fair amount over .020. doing it little by little to make sure i didnt file off too much it took a good 30-40 min per cylinder. the 2nd rings always seem to come out big. being a softer metal than the top ring they file off material much faster so even if they were close in gap, they open up fast once you start working with them

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

I like how the same 4-5 people seem to reply to these piston ring threads. Dont we have any engine builders left on this forum?

Ive never used JE rings before but Im not surprised the 2nd rings come too big out of the box. They are ALL like that, its a joke. I don't think thats an issue as long as its looser than the top ring. And for the scratches, make sure there are no sharp edges on the ring ends. I round the corners of the ends with a sharpening stone.

Why did you change ring brands? Id personally feel more comfortable using the N50 ring that we both are used to.

h2.4

Hastings makes je's rings,along with other piston manufactures. When talking to Je about a the last set of rings I ordered, my second ring came outta the box at .022". this was a a/m build, and I wanted a little tighter than that on the second ring. The tech stated, that is just depends on the ring manufacturers production run. They get rings that are slightly different from production run to run. You should be ok with that gap. I haven't had problems with that gap at all. I took a h22 that ran fine, smoked just a little, not too bad. But when I took the pistons out and checked the ring gap the last builder had in it, It was .080" on some and .055" on others!!!?? No sh*t. so you aren't gonna have any problems, as long as your oil scraper rings are good, the top two rings don't "seal" oil out. thats the oil scrapers job

kbouchard1092

My sig is below...i would be comfortable taking well into the 500whp territory with those gaps...but def no more then that. I really wouldnt ever want more then 500-550whp anyways its a street car.

And yeah im 99% certain there are a coating on those rings....thats why there are those markings its just some high spots on the coating, once you fire it up and get some load on those rings to wear the coatings and cross hatches from honing it will seal up nicely....I would not worry at all those up and down markings. They will wear off after you fire it up.

How much power are you aiming for with the new build?

Did you have it bored? or are you using the existing bore size and pistons from a previous build?

blackeg

im going to go as far as my 60-1 will take me on c12 gas, so probably 525-550. last year i made 475 on 16 psi then had boost control issue on the dyno. this year i raised my fuel pressure and fixed the boost control issue. id like to get it around 20-22psi i think thats around where the turbo really becomes inefficient. its a rehone on a previous bore that had maybe 3000 miles. i was having oil in cylinder issues so i tore it apart. turns out among other things i slightly bent one of my 2nd rings when i filed it down last time and it didnt seal properly. completely my fault but it happens i guess. all out of round was check and it was less than .0005 so i had the machine shop just give it a good hone.



muckman - i honestly misplaced my spare set of hastings rings so i went with the pro seals. ive used them before with success so i didnt figure id have issues this time. i could have sworn though that they were always marked n50 though....

i know what you mean about the 2nd rings always coming big out of the box, but i guess its inevitable. also from an old discussion, this time around i switched to another ls crank and used those acl race bearings i had for my rods. all specs came out much more consistent. rods are all .0016 - .0018 and my mains with oem bearings came out .0016-.0017 with the middle main journal at exactly . 0020. right in the upper limit of factory specs with nothing tighter than .0015. that seems to be the threshold that once u go tighter the bearings start to wear out considerably faster

kbouchard1092

Youre very realistic with youre goals.... Good luck with everything. Def let us know how you made out. Any idea when youll have it back on the dyno?

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

What concerns me more then anything about the advice being given on this forum is the complete lack of precision that anyone uses when building an engine. Between piston ring specs, bearing specs, p2w clearances, etc etc. When I built my engine I built it with the correct specs, within a insanely tight tolerance between all 4 cylinders. My p22 was .0040 EXACTLY on all 4 cylinder bores, my piston rings were .015 top and .018, with a .001 margin of error across all 4, which only two cylinders had, one being .014 and one being .016. I followed the specs that supertech provided for my application to the LETTER. It amazes me that some people are just completely ok with over 5% leakdown on a brand new engine.

blackeg

One thing I've learned from doing this **** for 10 years now is that you will either run absolutely broke, go completely insane or some combination of the 2 trying to nitpick everything to the. 0000001 place get the **** within spec, and drive it.

Honestly not sure about the dyno I was planning on tuning the rest of the fuel for a few more psi at the track. I was trapping 126 to 127 before hand, so ill rough guess my power from the increased mph. Money is tight noww though I think im buying a truck this weekend and still want to renovate my bathroom at some point over the summer

h2.4

^^^ last two posts, No one is condoning sloppy building. I usually set up ring end gap anywhere from .016 to .025 depending on the induction and bore. between engines with tighter vs. looser end gaps, I haven't noticed a measureable difference in leakdown tests once broken in properly. I haven't had a block yet that was absolutely perfectly round without any tenth of a thousands of taper yet. Not being a dick, but if you can't get your ring gap perfectly matched to a thousands, you're probibly not going to be able to measure in the tenths of thousands for p2w clearance. What are your options when a block or crank comes back from the machine shop after you told them the clearances you wanted, and it's off 3 tenths of a thousands? junk the block? order a new set of pistons? order another set of rings that come outta the box at .022" and hope their production run is different than the last batch you received? you'd never get anything assembled, ever. I understand about being picky, but alot of it is in the hands of your machine shop and your tooling you use to measure it when it gets back. I guess finding the machine shop that can fit your bill is the best way to do it. But not everybody is lucky enough to have that luxury without sending it out.

EG1834

Most of my experience is with V8 engines, and with them you can order 4.005" rings for a 4" bore so that you can file them down to whatever you please. In the cases I received rings meant for the same bore, the gaps were always a little looser than what I liked to see.

Maybe you could have ordered 84.75mm rings instead of 84.5mm rings and filed them down, but unless you have access to an electric ring filer, it may not be worth the week you would spend filing them down lol.

blackeg

they are file fit....just poorly produced i guess. the top rings out of the box were all less than .020 and they had to be filed to .024. i just have a hand run filing wheel from summit so no electric for me. the gaps are consistent, all .024x for the top and the 2nd rings out of the box were .027x.

ok check this out: i found my set of hastings n50 rings in my parents basement yesterday. heres a pic of the je ring on the bottom and the hastings n50 on the top. you can see uncompressed the je is larger so when installed in the same bore diameter it should have more force expanding out.


the n50's 2nd ring out of the box had a gap of .024 so ill have to file a tiny bit off them to get .026 or .027. well, im going out to the garage now to swap rings over and hopefully bolt the head on and together before i head out fishing for the evening

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

those rings dont look like they are for the same bore size in the pic

blackeg

Yea something wasn't right. The top ring had a goldish coating on it too the n50s are silver. I wonder if I was just shipped whatever cuz the ones I ordered wereon backorder.

No matter its all back together with the n50s and no more marking the walls. Gaps came out to. 0235 top and out of the box. 0265 to. 0270. Just sucks to do it twice since its time consuming. Now off to go fishing lol

EG1834

Less than .020" would probably be better for a naturally aspirated engine, not everyone needs over .020" gap on the top ring. My engine has a larger bore than most Honda engines, and I set it at only .018".