Id pull a couple degrees out of the entire boost map until you guys get to the bottom of everything. I'm sure VSV has a handle on it...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Id pull a couple degrees out of the entire boost map until you guys get to the bottom of everything. I'm sure VSV has a handle on it... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like a good idea.

 

I personally think what killed those pistons is pre-ignition, your ignition system is decent and there is nothing wrong with the heat range of the plugs. The timing does seem a bit high for the compression. And if the plugs are black it just makes it seem like pre-ignition was your problem.

Here is my first b16a with 10.1 compression that died of pre-ignition.






Edit: Pictures


Modified by newgsr at 3:45 PM 11/13/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I personally think what killed those pistons is pre-ignition, your ignition system is decent and there is nothing wrong with the heat range of the plugs. The timing does seem a bit high for the compression. And if the plugs are black it just makes it seem like pre-ignition was your problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

What causes pre-ignition?

 

ahhhhhhhh hopefully I get this right but the best way I can explain it is that its a spark of the ignition when you have one of the intake valves open before the compression stroke is completed.

Actually let me reword that, its when the chamber itself gets so hot and causes ignition of the fuel in the chamber before the spark plug has time to fire the fuel...
There I think this is better.


Modified by newgsr at 4:07 PM 11/13/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ahhhhhhhh hopefully I get this right but the best way I can explain it is that its a spark of the ignition when you have one of the intake valves open before the compression stroke is completed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so would it be a tuning issue or just something that happens due to the ignition type that I have?

 

Adi's motor melted because he accidentally advanced the dizzy too much when he changed cams...

 

that really sucks hard about your car brian...i guess it's just bad luck time for boosted type r's and si's. i'm glad i drive an ls.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bulldogg83 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

so would it be a tuning issue or just something that happens due to the ignition type that I have?</TD></TR></TABLE>

In your case the causes would be a lean fuel mixture, timing, any sharp edges on pistons or valves, and I don't know what kind of valve springs your runnnig but if you have the stock ones that could be another one of the reasons why it took a crap..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

In your case the causes would be a lean fuel mixture, timing, any sharp edges on pistons or valves, and I don't know what kind of valve springs your runnnig but if you have the stock ones that could be another one of the reasons why it took a crap..</TD></TR></TABLE>

running REV Springs/Retainers with Ferrea valves.....

 

pre-ignition is when the fuel ignites before the spark plug fires. (usually caused by hotspots on the piston or too low of octane level)

Refer back to the first page where I mentioned the sharp edge on the valve relief creating a hot spot that pre-ignited.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DIRep972 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am not sure why those valve relief's are so large on that 84mm piston. my wiseco 84mm's easily have 2 more mm's of piston material around the edge. If I were to speculate, i'd say the thin part of the piston created a hot spot that was prone to pre-ignition.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes you did say that...sorry for overlooking it. way to be on the ball.

 

Yeah, you know chris he is always on his *****!! lol, j/k chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, you know chris he is always on his *****!! lol, j/k chris </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol...that's Chris for ya!

 

Pre-ignition often starts after it has run into detonation wich cause the spark plugs to glow and then you get pre-ignition wich kill an engine much faster than detonation.

In this case, if the AFR's were good, it was just too much timing. I would say at least 5 degrees too much.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by coocoo32 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pre-ignition often starts after it has run into detonation wich cause the spark plugs to glow and then you get pre-ignition wich kill an engine much faster than detonation.

In this case, if the AFR's were good, it was just too much timing. I would say at least 5 degrees too much.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Would there be any signs of it anywhere else besides on the piston or on the spark plugs?

 

The above statement regarding pre-ignition is correct. Somebody has been doing their homework...and I'm not talking about "some home school class on fabrication and tuning" because that obviously doesn't teach you ****, as we are all witnessing first hand in this discussion.

The outer valve relief area looks like the sharpest/thinnest/weakest part of your piston, and should be the first area to heat up to the point that pre-ignition would take place. Also, keep in mind that pre-ignition can lead to detonation. Once detonation takes place, you will find the weakest link in your motor. Sometimes it'll pound the bearings, sometimes it'll blow the head gasket, sometimes it'll bend a rod or two, sometimes it'll break the ceramic on the spark plug, or in your case, it broke the piston.

(*On a side note: where do you think the debris from your broken piston goes? Right past the turbine wheel of your GT35E. Maybe as the pieces of the piston fly out, they slam into the turbine wheel taking a microscopic chunk or five off of it. And now, as your turbine wheel is spinning at around 80,000 rpm's (with five small chunks missing) it is no longer balanced (with the severity of imbalance depending on the moment of inertia that the chunks are missing from). And the imbalance puts undue stress on the bearings because of the harmonics in the shaft from the imbalanced turbine wheel and the bearings start to wear away and cause excess shaft play. Just food for thought, back to my point...)

After reading this thread, I saw the definition of detonation that Jarrett posted and wasn't satisfied that it was correct. So I did my own research:

...and Jarrett, lean in really close to your monitor and re-read this next paragraph as many times as you need to for it to make sense...

"The mechanism of detonation is the rising pressure of the piston thrusting upward to TDC causing combustion chamber pressures to soar to the point where the air/fuel mixture in the ends of the combustion chamber auto-ignites. This secondary flame front collides with the primary flame front started by the spark plug. The two explosions collide in the combustion chamber at near mach speeds (in other words, the speed of sound) with tremendous force, creating the tell-tale pinging or knocking noise heard with the occurrance of detonation. The two most common causes of detonation are over advanced-timing and poor fuel. Over-advanced timing causes detonation by prematurely starting the combustion event. In this case the auto-ignition occurs after the spark plug fires but before the controlled flame front reaches all of the gas. Over-advanced timing simply ignites the air/fuel mixture too soon, starting the explosion while the piston is still way too far down the bore. The rising piston collides with the propogating explosion causing cylinder pressures to rise to the auto-ignition point, and the remaining gases to explode."

-Mike Kojima
SCC 8/99

I am no expert, nor do I play one on T.V., but I was pretty content with the above definition and thought I would share it. It seems pretty evident that the piston broke due to detonation. Was it tuner-related? I guess it depends on how close to the threshold for detonation it was tuned. Without a doubt, it is the responsibility of the tuner to keep some margin of safety for a street motor running high boost on pump gas. If there isn't, one tank of bad gas will kill a motor quick. Is that what happened? How long did the motor stay together? How long did your last motor stay together? And the one before that? Is there a pattern here?

Question for Stoney, or any tuner for that matter:

How do you determine the proper amount of ignition advance to run on a particular motor? There are a few ways. Some are pro-active in their approach, while others are re-active (obviously).

Now, who knows the answer?

Stoney could use a "pro-bono" pass to Ben Strader's EFI 101. I think it would all start to make some sense to him after that, because he'd learn this stuff the right way. But even if he had to pay, that's still less expensive than replacing engine parts plus labor while learning to tune on paying customer's cars. Or maybe he can start selling J&S Safeguard's as a package deal with his tuning services.

Bulldogg, maybe you should let another tuner take a stab at it. I know one or two. I can hook you up. I've been in your shoes, and it ain't no fun. But I finally found somebody that can tune reliably in Dallas, "done right"...

 

LOL "Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeetsssssss geeeeeet reaaaaaady to ruuuuuuuuuuuumble" LOL.


Modified by AVATAR at 11:16 PM 11/15/2004

 

speechless to Bangin'Gearz post....

 

Andrew, what up pimp...how yu doin'.

 

Bangin'gearz that is a good definition of detonation, yes I willl agree it is much better than the one I posted. But I am not so sure how you can jump to conclusions on what happened with the motor without actually seeing the motor. Yes you can see the pistons in those pictures (and they are good pictures too) but a first hand look usually is better.

Also something Brian fails to mention when posting this up is that Stoney felt the motor was at its limit at less horsepower than that, but Brian persisted that he wanted to make 400hp even though Stoney advised against it.

Bangin'gearz and/or Mace send me a pm cuz I value your input on how to tune better but maybe I can teach yall a couple things I know too.


Modified by Jarrett at 12:10 PM 11/16/2004

 

Ok since this thread has dove off the topic and began to be whether VSV Performance can tune cars or not, I'm gonna let you in on just how reliable their shop is. First off hears my setup: 85mm, 10:5:1 cr, Fully built LS/Vtec. On 114octane my car put down 515whp and 348Tq at 18.6psi. And on pump gas 425whp and 267Trq-10psi..... here's where Stoney's tuning comes into play. I've daily drove this car for over 7months, 45 plus miles a day completly beating the **** out of the car and still get 28 miles to the gallon, try to hate on that . Hmmmmmm thats funny cause I haven't had to re-tune my car since day one. One day at the shop Stoney decided to throw my car back on the dyno not to tune but just see where it was at. We didn't let the motor cool down and it put down 420 & 265, I guess it doesn't take a expert to figure out that VSV can tune highly modified cars and make them safe at the same time. My whole point behind my post is I will always be a loyal customer as will others of VSV Performance, I've been to all shops in the Texas area and you won't find better customer service, or mechanics like Stoney/Jarett who actually care about their customers and cars they tune, so hate if you want .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bangin’gearz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Bulldogg, maybe you should let another tuner take a stab at it. I know one or two. I can hook you up. I've been in your shoes, and it ain't no fun. But I finally found somebody that can tune reliably in Dallas, "done right"...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Step 1. Take your thumb out of your ***.
Step 2. Finally admit to everyone that you are having a secret relationship with another man.
Step 3. Start taking your service to Concept Racing if you want some quality work done.

 

Ok you guys are throwing alot of punches and hitting much on each. I'm posting cuz i have actually seen the motor and have been asked " what do i think happened to this motor ". I built a lot of motors on trial and error carburated and fuel injected and seen what happens when things go wrong with detination and other things.

In this case there are a ton of factors/varibles that need to be accounted as with what happened to this motor. Now go back a couple of pages and stare , just stare at the pictures Brian posted. Brian asked me in person after he posted on here to ask you guys what happened to his motor - At first glance, it looked maybe fuel pooled from running rich at some point and ignited. I told Brian this cuz i really did not want to get involved with all these matters of here-say. Now after reading what all has been said i decided to post.

After looking at the pictures and the motor, you have to realize the cylinder walls between the two ( 2and 3) got TOO HOT and ignites the fuel early causing the pistons to crack or fatigue. Eventually as the piston pieces came out of the cylinder it damaged the turbo.
The heat between the cylinders could have been cause by many things -- like poor coolant flow , beating the **** out of the motor run after run without cooldown periods would cause honda motors tend have porblems between those cylinders 2 and 3.

One thing I can say is that, this is not from the tune on Stoney's part- he did what Brian asked for on this setup and it made some baddass power and lasted for several months If it was a bad tune I guarantee the motor would have blown to pieces within a week or two.

why this motor was damaged has nothing to do with detenation due too timing or too lean or even too rich. If it had been a timing issue or lean or rich it would not have happened in the EXACT same spot across the cylinders. Now if you look at the other pics posted by different people on motors that did detenate you'll see happen all over the cylinders not in the exact spot in two cylinders across from each other.

Detonation is not predictible as to where it will happen -- it's likely to happen at certain areas where hot spots occur usually on the piston itself or spots where sharp edges are on the combustion chamber not on the cylinder walls.

Now as far as VSV goes and their tuning goes they get my props for making 420 wheel horsepower on a 1.6L motor on pump gas and even having last a couple of months. In displacement per horspower that's phenominal, and should be comended. Honestly this is the first car i've seen them have problems with on high horsepower turbo applications and there are a bunch of cars that have come from VSV making over 400 wheel horsepower without having any problems like this.

Had things been as bad as you guys keep posting about this motor would have blown up alot sooner, definitely within the first month the Brian raced and drove the car. Brain took on some domestics and made them stop their smack talking with that motor, and after the turbo went bad brain had the turbo replaced retuned the car at VSV 376whp 14psi on pump after this piston damage had occurred, then he got in wreck on the way to the track. That's why the motor came out and here we are today. If not for the wreck, the motor would have come out after the NOPI Nationals at Ennis to check for damage.

Again if the the motor had a bad tune the result would have been catostrophic real quick, and it was still making power when Brian wrecked by rearending someone without brake lights.

Andy

 

Good post Viperdude. What you said about the wall between two and three getting hotter then the rest is very true. (because of firing order for anyone wondering) I would have to add that to my speculation