Since we are giving official updates... I wanted everyone to know that I have been taking a home school class on fabrication and tuning. I was just informed that I passed the 1st grade with flying colors. I have aspirations to learn to weld, fabricate, tune, and maybe even start my own business one day. Full - Race Geoff gave me props on a downpipe the other day so.... I think i'm on the right track.

 

Let me first off define detonation... Detonation:
A violent explosion; also called combustion knock. This usually occurs when hot spots (caused by engine deposits) in the combustion chamber ignites the air and fuel mixture prematurely. Also occurs after combustion if any unburned fuel is left in the combustion chamber. Also known as engine knock. Places great stress on the engine and leads to the destruction of the engine if ignored.

If this is to hard to understand you can give me a call and I will explain it in greater detail.

Secondly the engine never got too lean and the piston didnt melt, we are talking about a rich condition. Also When an engine gets too lean and detonates because of being too lean there are specific "SIGNS" that let you know inside the cylinder and on the head. Just wanting to clarify that it didn't have to do with a lean A/f mixture.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by project dc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i thought boost fuel maps react to boost? so how could you be running .. 10 psi fuel set up when the cars only making 7 psi?</TD></TR></TABLE>
project dc2 let me clarify this for you. When running a .7 Bar wastegate spring the lowest boost setting is what most ppl call "wastegate". The lowest setting on that wastegate without or with a boost controller would be 10.15 psi. That is what is meant by you can only tune in the 10psi boost column and above. Yes you still tune below that in the fuel map but usually those areas are a little richer because at WOT you can not get the car to hit 7 psi on the dyno. How you would tune this section of the map would be to add about the same amount of fuel increase to the 7psi and below as you do to the 10psi area. But the boost didnt fall for 10psi to 7psi. It fell from 18psi to 5psi. I know what you might be thinking. Why not use throttle control to boost below .7 bar. Well his turbo has a .63 AR on the exhaust which is not a huge AR but also not a small one either. Without having a big AR on the exhaust it makes it really difficult, if even possible to control boost with the throttle. But the plus to having a smaller AR is that boost comes on harder and sooner. Once again if you need me to clarify more I will be happy to talk with you on the phone, so give me a call.

What happens when a cylinder runs too rich is that it "washes the cylinders". This term refers to fuel washing the oil off the cylinder walls. When there is no lubrication on the cylinder walls for the piston and ring to move on something has got to give.

You have got to also know that he was running 18psi on a 9.5-9.8 compression B16a motor on the street on pump gas making 416hp to the ground.

Also recently I have taken time out of my busy schedule to take Stoney under my wing and teaching him the ways of tuning and how to build motors.


Modified by Jarrett at 10:34 AM 11/5/2004

 

thats detonation dude. washing of the rings from too much fuel wont melt a piston. If you dont believe me ill send you pics of my same exact pistons and same exact melt spots from an old motor i had

 

You didnt listen to what I said. No where did I put that the piston melted. I actually said that the pistons DID NOT melt. If you need me to clarify on anything like I said give me a call.

 

uh, you didnt even cover the fact that majority of the time, detonation is caused by inproper ignition timing.

being stated that he was running over 400 whp on 93. that leaves a small margin for the ignition timing. Do you mind sharing with us exactly what type of timing he was running at 18 psi? With that info, we can get a better idea of how the engine was performing.


furthermore, ive never actually heard of a motor detonate because it was running too rich.

his motor had compression right? if the cylinder walls were truely washed, i highly doubt it would have that high of compression.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stoney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since we are giving official updates... I wanted everyone to know that I have been taking a home school class on fabrication and tuning. I was just informed that I passed the 1st grade with flying colors. I have aspirations to learn to weld, fabricate, tune, and maybe even start my own business one day. Full - Race Geoff gave me props on a downpipe the other day so.... I think i'm on the right track. </TD></TR></TABLE>

cool man, when you open up your own shop can i borrow some tools out of your $150,000 collection.

 

this sure as **** aint from running too rich and flooding out the rings.


I have heard of detonation from being too rich , but i dont know how valid it is. Also you wouldnt even be able to get into boost if it was rich enuff to do damage, it would be popping and going crazy liek it would if it were too lean

 

Looks exactly like some poor tuning, or REALLY poor gas to me. Very similar results on my GF's 85mm pistons, which were victims of poor tuning from a previous owner.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tinker219 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Looks exactly like some poor tuning, or REALLY poor gas to me. Very similar results on my GF's 85mm pistons, which were victims of poor tuning from a previous owner.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh so based off some pics you say poor tune ?

LOL OK what about 18psi on pump gas for lets say over an over after you know there is a problem ? I say you play hard, you pay hard ! **** happens.. If it's the fault of the tuner (which I HIGHLY DOUBT) then I am CERTAIN they will do all that they can to solve the problem. If its just something that the driver did or didn't do well then nough said. &lt;---Not blaming the driver...but. Then again I don't know all the facts here , and I am NOT some MAD tuner such as Mase... But I do know that sometimes things happen in this game. Sucks ! Sorry to hear. I am sure all will be ok in the end.

Good luck


Modified by AcuraFreak at 4:38 PM 11/5/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">uh, you didnt even cover the fact that majority of the time, detonation is caused by inproper ignition timing.

furthermore, ive never actually heard of a motor detonate because it was running too rich.

his motor had compression right? if the cylinder walls were truely washed, i highly doubt it would have that high of compression. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Let me try and clarify some stuff for you that you might have misunderstood. First off, his car ran flawlessly before the turbo went. Secondly yes it is very possible to wash the cylinders and still have compression. I am not sure what you meant by <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">his motor had compression right? if the cylinder walls were truely washed, i highly doubt it would have that high of compression. </TD></TR></TABLE> The motor had less compression after the rings were washed, but yes it still had compression and it still ran.

 

I dont understand what a turbos performance has to do with holes/deteriorating of pistons unless

A) The tune went bad for whatever reason and it detonated
B) The turbo shot some **** into the motor and chipped the pistons.

Im betting on option A

 

i adjusted the pictures, im not sure if it matters at this point, but it should give a better idea.

 

Ok, so why cant you share with us his ignition timing values?????

 

I would be glad to, his ignition timing in the ignition map was 21 degrees at 9000 rpm, his base timing was set at 16 degrees. But that wont help you figure out much without knowing other factors such as sparkplugs, quench and other variables in the motor.

 

you mean to tell me he's running 21 degrees of timing at 19 psi on pump gas with 10:1 compression??

you can try to bring in all the variables in the world, but thats way too much timing....


maybe i miss understood you, whats his ignition timing from say 5000-9000 at 19 psi?

 

His compression across the cylinders was a consistent 195. So it was not quite 10:1. He was running 18 psi and the timing increases like it should between 5000-9000 from 19 degrees to 21 degrees with timing staying consistent switching from low cam to high cam. I think this has turned into an issue of whether vsv knows how to tune cars or not. We've been in business for 6 years now and are very proud of our reputation. We have sacrificed dearly just to be able to have an in - house dyno for customer convenience. We have many more satisfied customers than we do disgruntled ones. Ask bulldogg83 about all the other things that we are happy to do for him because he continues to be a loyal supporter of vsv.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stoney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I think this has turned into an issue of whether vsv knows how to tune cars or not. We've been in business for 6 years now and are very proud of our reputation. We have sacrificed dearly just to be able to have an in - house dyno for customer convenience. We have many more satisfied customers than we do disgruntled ones. Ask bulldogg83 about all the other things that we are happy to do for him because he continues to be a loyal supporter of vsv. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Naturally I am going to chime in here regardless if my opinion matters or not !
I have to fully agree with Stoney and fully stand behind VSV methods, skills and abilities 100% and everyone that works at that shop ! Long, long time ago boys and girls...I learned a very important lesson ! Working with a shop means its a two way street ! Customer and shop both have responsibilities to one another ! What I mean is...I am sure there are a HELLUVA lot of so called "Top Tuners & Shops" out there that have had this happen...NO ? If you say no your full of **** !!!

Now placing blame on who, what, why etc. is all fine an dandy. But calling someone out or BLAH BLAH bad tune, bad tune, etc. This is just a weak *** way of sitting behind a computer screen and throwing **** cause its easy and you don't know JACK of what is happening or happened in this case. Don't get me wrong I think it sucks this happen. I am not going to sit here an watch someone, anyones rep at VSV get even a little tarnished over something we ALL know can happen in this game !! I am sure people are just offering up info to help find out why it happened but you can be a tad more professional in your comments.

There I'm done ! I say VSV suk it !

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stoney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">His compression across the cylinders was a consistent 195. So it was not quite 10:1. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually compression #'s in the cylinders has nothing to do with overall piston compression. that just tells you you have good sealing of the rings.

I agree that is a bit much timing for that much boost. i think on pump gas my timing at 15-16 psi on pump was 19degrees turned down a little for safety, that was on 9:1

 

Well itr206 if you really want to get technical, alot more than just advertised piston compression goes into the calculation of static compression. There are several variables that change the advertised piston compression. From what he calculated the static compression ratio I think was around 9.5-9.8:1.

If the cylinders had detonated there would have been signs on the valves and sparkplugs.

Like I stated earlier there is more than just amount of boost and compression ratio going into the calculation when tuning the ignition timing on a car. If you look up a couple of posts you can see where I mention that. I just don't want to have to take up more space than I did and state it again. But if you really want me to elaborate on that you can call the shop and I would be more than happy to talk with you about it and maybe the both of us can learn a thing or two.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jarrett &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Also recently I have taken time out of my busy schedule to take Stoney under my wing and teaching him the ways of tuning and how to build motors.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

well sorry to say, but maybe stoney needs a new mentor .


that motor was running too much ignition timing.

and sorry to let the cat out of the bag, but i heard this wasnt the first car thats blown up or had 'issues' come from that shop.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B O B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well sorry to say, but maybe stoney needs a new mentor .
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Damn... no matter whats there's gonna be haters out there, who have nothing else better to do than try to prove that their in some way more knowledgable, or in his case just tryin' to be ignorant..... but hey well let it slide.

 

This thread was not created to create controversy between different tuners and they're tuning style. First off in reponse to:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AcuraFreak &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

LOL OK what about 18psi on pump gas for lets say over an over after you know there is a problem ? I say you play hard, you pay hard ! **** happens.. If it's the fault of the tuner (which I HIGHLY DOUBT) then I am CERTAIN they will do all that they can to solve the problem. If its just something that the driver did or didn't do well then nough said. &lt;---Not blaming the driver...but. Then again I don't know all the facts here , and I am NOT some MAD tuner such as Mase... But I do know that sometimes things happen in this game. Sucks ! Sorry to hear. I am sure all will be ok in the end.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know the cost of the game, and the theory of you play hard, you pay hard. I know this probably more than you would ever know and if you care to talk in private then please PM me so I can clear anything up.

The overall main reason I made the post was for a few reasons:
1. Originally made the post about having problems with the car, and couldn't figure what it was exactly. I know I hate it when I read a thread, and try to follow up on it to see what happened, but the original poster never gave the outcome. I am simply posting what has happened to the car incase someone else comes across a problem like this in the future.
2. As I have explained to Jarrett/Stoney, I can understand the rings washing due to the motor being too rich, but was having a hard understanding of why the pistons melted, and I had never heard of too much fuel causing damage to the rings, and that is why I made the post. To find out more information, not to only make myself more knowledgable, but to help others understand other possible ways of detonation if that's what it was.

To also clarify on the car going lean here are my dyno graphs--&gt;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...iew=t

SAE Smoothing 5--&gt;

SAE Smoothing 0--&gt;


I hope this clears a few things up.


Modified by Bulldogg83 at 9:19 PM 11/6/2004


Modified by Bulldogg83 at 9:20 PM 11/6/2004

 

so what happend? hopefully they helped you rebuild that motor after blowing it up for you ?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B O B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so what happend? hopefully they helped you rebuild that motor after blowing it up for you ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually we are getting the motor put back together right now, and I got the parts at cost. Details are still being worked out, but don't worry. I will keep everyone posted.

 

good luck with all that, man