<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you need to build another 10 second car and quite beating around the bush.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Its really a shame that jeff evans has basically stopped giving any feedback on these types of issues on his site...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cobra2326 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its really a shame that jeff evans has basically stopped giving any feedback on these types of issues on his site...</TD></TR></TABLE>

why is it a shame? jeff is a tuner and he has to earn money from his job... especialy ignition tuning is a very difficult thing and basicly thats what a tunes is mostly payed for. Fuel maps can be set up by a baby with enought time and some basic understanding. So i think we should respect it if jeff don't want to tell us everything. I would hope to get some infos from him too :-) but if he doen't want - i respect that. i think he had learned his stuff very hard... so why we shouldn't ;-)

but another thing: i have tried my retarted chip today on the highway and the noise was totaly gone ... so i guess it was also knock at my engine with my ignition timing... the only thing that confuses me is, how my engine last so long with it, because it was clearly hearable, just for a noob so clear was it... if this was only some slight knock, i don't want to know how real bad knock will sound. By the way, i heared it only with my ears, no det can or something...

but now its gone... maybe we can make some tests about how different octane fuel will change the knock treshold?!?

Best regards
Malte.

 

mrx what is your setup and how much timing were you running? I usually tune a good amount of cars every week if I have time so I will report all my findings here and how much timing these different cars like. If I have enough time I will be tuning a stock boosted z6 this weekend with a 50 trim T3, and also hopefully my friend's monster street car setup.

 

Setup is a 100% stock b16a1 engine. custom littlebit advanced log style manifold, t3/t4 57trim and 3" DP, 2.5" exhaust.

today i was runing max. 15° with 91 octane fuel @ 8psi boost.

maybe its a bit over retarded now, and i feel a bit power loss but it def. don't knock at this stage not :-)

 

how much were you running before that it was audibly knocking?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much were you running before that it was audibly knocking?</TD></TR></TABLE>

something like 20° max. timing @ 7psi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">something like 20° max. timing @ 7psi</TD></TR></TABLE>

What did the knock sound like? I think I have heard the same thing on my engine @ 7k. Sounds almost like a rattle or the blow off valve. Possibly like a rapid version of the ping heard on normal cars @ low rpms. Either way, I was running 18* @ 7.5psi, which is .75*/psi retard, and when I pulled the plugs, they were nice and clean. I didnt, however, use a magnifier...

Another thing I noticed is that my piston tops are kinda dark, I wonder if ridding the motor of all that excess carbon will help with detonation resistance...?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why is it a shame? jeff is a tuner and he has to earn money from his job... especialy ignition tuning is a very difficult thing and basicly thats what a tunes is mostly payed for. Fuel maps can be set up by a baby with enought time and some basic understanding. So i think we should respect it if jeff don't want to tell us everything. I would hope to get some infos from him too :-) but if he doen't want - i respect that. i think he had learned his stuff very hard... so why we shouldn't ;-)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dont get me wrong, Im not knocking jeff, just saying that I learned a ton from him and now he is basically silent. Im suprised he gave as much info as he did before...

 

Yes i understand you... but maybe jeff is only busy... i know he has to tune a lot of car's and so on... maybe he hasn't time to write :-)

concerning the knock sound: until today i thought it was coming from the valvetrain, some mealic high speed rattling noise... hard to describe, but when you heared it once and then retarded the ign. timing you know exactly what it was... it's totaly easy if you know what to hear for.

it sounds, like some of the rocker arms are bouncing up and down from the speed of rpm and bang against a metalic thing on top or bottom of them... just as i saied, its hard to describe but you will know if you heared it once...

my plugs where also good with this amount of timing when i tuned the car... strange thing...

 

Yep, Ive heard that same sound at high rpms, sounds like a rattle. I almost swore that my BOV was leaking. Plugs were clean and if I remember correctly, the knock sensor showed very low, but not zero voltage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Setup is a 100% stock b16a1 engine. custom littlebit advanced log style manifold, t3/t4 57trim and 3" DP, 2.5" exhaust.

today i was runing max. 15° with 91 octane fuel @ 8psi boost.

maybe its a bit over retarded now, and i feel a bit power loss but it def. don't knock at this stage not :-)</TD></TR></TABLE>

pretty similar to my setup...I had to retard my total timing all the way down to 15* also, and heard the knock at 20* total timing. I wonder sometimes if its ok to have slight knock. Before I tuned my car, I was running on a chipped ecu programed for N/A for over a year, and I know the timing had to have been high on that chip. I beat the hell out of the car with this chip also. Then I tuned it with crome, ran about 19-20* up top for a while with no problems. And now I try this det can out and I realize I have to retard my timing a lot for the knock to go away.


Modified by See Are X at 2:28 PM 3/21/2006

 

You think you guys have it retarded a lot? I'm running about 12* total timing at 10psi and had to pull out even more around vtec crossover. Of coarse I think something is wrong with this engine probably from when I was running the y8 head originally and I know i had way too much timing back then. I could be getting oil in the combustion chamber. My car doesn't even smoke though . I tuned another sohc with the det cans and was able to run a good bit more timing than i'm running now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You think you guys have it retarded a lot? I'm running about 12* total timing at 10psi and had to pull out even more around vtec crossover. Of coarse I think something is wrong with this engine probably from when I was running the y8 head originally and I know i had way too much timing back then. I could be getting oil in the combustion chamber. My car doesn't even smoke though . I tuned another sohc with the det cans and was able to run a good bit more timing than i'm running now. </TD></TR></TABLE>

can you post a screen shot of your timing map? also, maybe you should try crome...maybe for some reason the timing numbers might be off in uberdata?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by See Are X &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">can you post a screen shot of your timing map? also, maybe you should try crome...maybe for some reason the timing numbers might be off in uberdata?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yea i'll have to post it later when i got my laptop. I dont think the numbers are different in crome because i set all my timing values to the same number and tested revving the car up from idle using a timing light and the timing didn't change off of where I had it set. I have cromepro as well and have tuned with it before, but lately I havent had any time to do a full tune on my car using crome. Honestly uberdata has always worked great for me, but i will eventually have to make the switch to crome since uberdata isnt advancing whatsoever.

 

Heres my hi cam timing maps. Keep in mind my timing maps are advanced 6* from what my actual timing output is due to me running a y8 dizzy on my z6 head and not being able to get more than 10* base timing without advancing timing 6* in the maps.

 

This thread is sweet! My buddy mentioned these cans to me a year and a half ago but it didnt sink in till I read this thread.

one question about your setup SOHC_MShue... Do you have the hole drilled in a smashed area of the tube or where its still a tube? you think it would work ok if I smashed the end of the tube for an inch or so and then drilled and bolted that to the block?

man I cant wait to get one of these on my car and do some tuning. I figure I can use it to ensure that an active timing retard setup is working properly when/if I switch to megasquirt on my k car.

J. Davis, do you think that the stock Volvo/VW (Bosch) sensors are the flat response type that the Porsche one was? (from the articles at the beginning of this thread) They seem like they might be from their construction and appearance.

Thanks

Brian

 

Mine is kind of drillled where the pipe is starting to be smushed. It will work fine either way though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mine is kind of drillled where the pipe is starting to be smushed. It will work fine either way though. </TD></TR></TABLE>

is it bolted to the block through the hole? the hole is to let noise through or to have a place to mount it?


thanks.

awesome thread!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pennhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is it bolted to the block through the hole? the hole is to let noise through or to have a place to mount it?


thanks.

awesome thread!</TD></TR></TABLE>
The hole is to have a place to mount it. You just drill a hole in the pipe.

 

Thanks!

Brian

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by reliant_turbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">one question about your setup SOHC_MShue... Do you have the hole drilled in a smashed area of the tube or where its still a tube? you think it would work ok if I smashed the end of the tube for an inch or so and then drilled and bolted that to the block? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I know you asked mr MShue, but I have mine flattened for about an inch and the hole is drilled in the flattened part. I rolled the end of the flattened part over and hammered it, then put it in a vice to smush it even more. Seems to work OK.

 

Just as an update, I pulled 2* more timing up top, putting me at 16.75* instead of 18.75* and I didnt notice any difference in afrs until I pulled it to 15.75*. Looks like Im pretty close to MBTT here. Could be the reason I heard that sound at 18.75*...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cobra2326 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just as an update, I pulled 2* more timing up top, putting me at 16.75* instead of 18.75* and I didnt notice any difference in afrs until I pulled it to 15.75*. Looks like Im pretty close to MBTT here. Could be the reason I heard that sound at 18.75*...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

did you feel a difference in power? I felt a difference when I had to take out about 3-4* throughout my whole high cam. The more and more I drive my car the more I can feel how much slower it got...but it might just be in my head. Someone should test this on a dyno somehow.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by See Are X &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">did you feel a difference in power? I felt a difference when I had to take out about 3-4* throughout my whole high cam. The more and more I drive my car the more I can feel how much slower it got...but it might just be in my head. Someone should test this on a dyno somehow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, I didnt really FEEL any difference, to me the butt dyno is completely subjective. I just watched my change in afrs at a constant fuel flow while changing the timing, usually if they get richer, this means the power went down.