P_t0wn

Hey guys,

I have a d16z6 with the following done to it
Apexi BB turbo
Apexi GT Spec FMIC
Apexi Twinchamber BOV
Apexi VAFC
Holley fuel pump
RC 370cc Injectors
Rsr Exhaust

The engine has about 98k miles on it, and the compression test was 120 140 140 140. The goal is to get about 200 hp. So it looks like i need to rebuild the engine... Since i know some of the members have built d16's, i would love to pick ur brains...

What would be the best way to get the engine running its best b4 i get into the heavy rebuilding?

Would the stock 9.5:1 be better or worse than the 8.5:1 you see on many turbo cars?

As for the rebuild, What all do i need to do, to get the car running around 200+ hp with out the worry of the engine going boom?

any tips would be great
thanks peoples


Modified by P_t0wn at 11:40 PM 7/23/2003


Modified by P_t0wn at 11:40 PM 7/23/2003

Pengo

i'd say arp headstuds, pistons, rods, and a tuned hondata with the right sized turbo should do the trick. i dare to say low comp and sleeves may be a lil overkill but couldnt hurt if ur lookin to run more boost in the long run. it can definitely be done with a built d tho. dunno how much the apexi bb can support but i'm pretty sure 250 would be pushin it.

P_t0wn

^

P_t0wn

ttt

boosted hybrid

IMO when rebuilding your engine you have to consider what you want from the performance of the engine on pump gas or race gas.

If you seek maximum amount of power on pump gas go with low compression, around 8:1~8.5:1 and go with a larger t3/t4oe. With 8:1 compression you'll be able to boost 16-19psi on a larger t3/to4e and lay down between 300-350whp. With the lower compression set-up you are letting the turbocharger created the power, and the ability to cool the incoming compressed air is much more friendly than with a higher compression set-up.

If you seek maximum amount of power in general go with higher compression say 9.5:1~10:1. With the higher compression set-up you'll not be able to boost as much, and inadvertently not be able to cool down the air from the higher compression set-up as effectively as with a lower compression set-up. You'll be able to make more power on race gas in the long run since the engine will be creating the power more so than with a lower compression engine.

I'm finishing up a 9:1 compression built d16z6 engine as we speak. Maximum boost will be around 14psi on a to4e 60 trim compressor. Looking for 300+whp on pump gas.

M.A.R.C.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO when rebuilding your engine you have to consider what you want from the performance of the engine on pump gas or race gas.

If you seek maximum amount of power on pump gas go with low compression, around 8:1~8.5:1 and go with a larger t3/t4oe. With 8:1 compression you'll be able to boost 16-19psi on a larger t3/to4e and lay down between 300-350whp. With the lower compression set-up you are letting the turbocharger created the power, and the ability to cool the incoming compressed air is much more friendly than with a higher compression set-up.

If you seek maximum amount of power in general go with higher compression say 9.5:1~10:1. With the higher compression set-up you'll not be able to boost as much, and inadvertently not be able to cool down the air from the higher compression set-up as effectively as with a lower compression set-up. You'll be able to make more power on race gas in the long run since the engine will be creating the power more so than with a lower compression engine.

I'm finishing up a 9:1 compression built d16z6 engine as we speak. Maximum boost will be around 14psi on a to4e 60 trim compressor. Looking for 300+whp on pump gas.</TD></TR></TABLE>

hrm ur aiming for 300whp on pump gas!?!?! nice. i was thinking on my planned setup I'd be limited to like 250whp on pump gas then 300+whp on race gas. any suggestions for this setup i have planned here?:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=566140

ELSpool

With the 300whp goal, I read that CivicRyda2k has his sleeved, but is boosted hybrid sleeving or block posting? I'm just in the middle of the same goal for my Y8 but I was thinking just rods, pistons, ARP studs and T04E 57 trim should get me there. Also curious about turbos cams.

See post.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=572060

Timmah!!

For only 200 HP, just keep it simple and cheap. Good aftermarket, stock compression pistons... good rods, complete rebuild, ARP studs all around, and a good "torbo" head gasket. You should hanve no need to get the block resleeved with aftermarket sleeves. You may want to get the motor ballanced while you have the chance.

TurboSedan

I think that 8:1 is way too low, I would stick to 9:1 and make sure it is properly tuned. The off boost response will be much better and you will not need to run so much boost.

VTC_CiViC

I don't understand what everybody's lust over low compression is. I understand the theory behind low compression = higher boost limits, but we also know that it WILL make attaining any set power numbers require more boost from the same setup, further heating the charge, increased the amount of fuel required per stroke, placing more physical stress on your lines/clamps etc, and essentially making things that much more complicated.

Why do you want to run 7:1 compression and 25psi to make 300whp, when you can run 9:1 and 12psi to get the same? I dunno, maybe people like to look at ultra-low compression as a form of a band-aid for shoddy tuning, but I'd be much happer with a 9:1 or 9.5:1 compression motor making equal power with FAR better off boost drivability, far better spool time and a good tune.

M.A.R.C.

amen brother

boosted hybrid

As far as the sleeves goes they are stock. The d sleeves are plenty strong with good tuning to withstand abuse.

As far as higher compression and turbo goes you cannot cool down the heat generate by the higher compression condition in the combustion chamber. The air is going to be heated up to a certain degree with every point of compression, and inturn this leads to more power produced by the engine. Introduce boost into the picture and your cylinder pressure rises with a direct relationship with temperature. With a lower compression set-up you have a lower temperature produced within the combustion chamber, along with lower cylinder pressures. When you are able to introduce cooled compressed air into the picture the chance for detonation is reduced over the higher temperature, higher cylinder pressure, higher compression engine on pump gas. This is the reason why you need to pick where you want to make your power on pump gas, or on race gas. I prefer to make it on pump which is why my personal b-series is 8.8:1, and my girlfriend's d-series is 9.2:1. We are both running extremely large compressors for our engines, this allows us to boost higher and get the compressors in their efficiency ranges and thus make more power. I see it time and time again when tuning, people run 57 and 60 trim compressors and arent running them over 10psi. They really arent becoming efficient yet and not making the power that they should. If they truely want to run at lower psi levels they should have went with a 50 trim so the efficiency was improved, and more power would made.

As far as fuel consumption goes its based on torque, there probably would be more fuel consumption from the higher generated torque output simply because the turbo would be making the power and not the engine. The physical stress on the engine would probably be less with a lower compression engine than a higher compression engine. All things considered the cylinder pressure would be higher in the higher compression engine, this and the heat generated are directly related to detonation.

VTC_CiViC

I understand the correlation between cylinder temps and cylinder pressure, but what strikes me as obvious, and forgive my ignorance since I'm certainly no tuner, is that although the guy running 8.8:1 is running with lower initial temps inside the combustion chamber than the guy running say 9.5:1... the fact that the lower compression engine needs to increase boost pressure say an extra 5psi (just pulling a figure off the top of my head) means that the air itself will inheritly be warmed further than the one running 5psi less.

In other words, although you start with lower cylinder temps, you end up feeding the engine hotter air by increasing the boost regardless. I hope I'm making sense, and i'm sure you're right but I'm just trying to get a better grasp on this for future consideration because right now it seems as if running higher compression with moderate boost and a solid good tune is more beneficial for a street car than low compresion and high boost. Help me out here!

Ahhh honda-tech F.I. ..man I love this place

boosted hybrid

You are correct to a certain extent, but you are forgetting about the efficiences of the compressors. If you have a 50 trim compressor it was a wider compressor map than a 60 trim compressor. If you are outside the turbochargers efficiency range you'll generate more heat leading towards higher in cylinder temperatures and thus detonation to some extent. If you match up the a compressor towards your highest and lowest boost level on pump gas, you'll have the higher and lower compression engine making about the same amount of power as well as similar cylinder pressures/temperatures. The key to getting an engine to make power on either a low or high compression set-up is matching the compressor and intercooler. I used to run 11:1, and I have run 8:1. Both were fun, and both times my compressor was suited towards its application.

As far as tuning goes the lower compression will def. have more led until you approach the limits of pump gas at high psi levesls. Its still just as tricky as tuning a higher compression/low boost set-up.

ELSpool

And I think it come backs to what psi range is efficient for your turbo and compare that too what hp you want to make with what compression.

Saying that if you have a 15G trying to run 17 psi on 8.8 compression, it will probably be out of efficiency, but if that same set up had 9.5 compression and running less boost to hit the same hp, that turbo would be back in efficiency range.

M.A.R.C.

see with factors like this. wouldn't the kind of power ur looking for help u make a choice? like i would much rather a quicker off boost response since my car will be mostly street driven. now with a track car the off boost response may not matter much since it'll be in boost all of the run pretty much. i'm guessing that when deciding these factors you should probably look into the cr and motor setup, then pick the compressor that would best match the power goals and the setup u have. that make any sense?

TurboSedan

I think you are assuming that everyone wants to run the huge compressor. I do not believe in the huge compressor for more hp/lb of boost idea. I understand compressor maps and know how to pick one that will be the most efficient for a certain application. If you go higher CR and run lower boost, of course you will not need the huge compressor. That should be obvious.

boosted hybrid

All this goes back to what I said in my earlier post...do you want to make power on pump gas or on race gas? Do you want the engine to make the power or the turbo to make the power? I prefer low compression, high boost, pump gas power. This, to me, is real world power since race gas isn't always an option for a daily driver.

Look at TurbodCX's set-up. 8:1 compression, 19lbs on pump gas, 350 at the wheels. With an equal length manifold, sheet metal intake manifold, and a gt-40 compressor wheel aka sc61, he would be close to 400whp on pump gas.

ill_take_one

Ah, i love this Forum
Thanks for all the tech. info!

M.A.R.C.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All this goes back to what I said in my earlier post...do you want to make power on pump gas or on race gas? Do you want the engine to make the power or the turbo to make the power? I prefer low compression, high boost, pump gas power. This, to me, is real world power since race gas isn't always an option for a daily driver.

Look at TurbodCX's set-up. 8:1 compression, 19lbs on pump gas, 350 at the wheels. With an equal length manifold, sheet metal intake manifold, and a gt-40 compressor wheel aka sc61, he would be close to 400whp on pump gas. </TD></TR></TABLE>

from that point of view it makes sense. i was pm'ing turbodcx about his setup as well. I didn't know that 343whp/19psi was on pump gas? that's not bad at all. still going with 9:1 because i havethe pistons already though but that's quite interesting.

M.A.R.C.

also... what about the tq loss?

RyanEJ8

Good info.

boosted hybrid

If you are letting the turbo make the power, there is going be more torque generated by the engine rather than the engine making the power on higher compression.

Drew Peacock

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All this goes back to what I said in my earlier post...do you want to make power on pump gas or on race gas? Do you want the engine to make the power or the turbo to make the power? I prefer low compression, high boost, pump gas power. This, to me, is real world power since race gas isn't always an option for a daily driver.

Look at TurbodCX's set-up. 8:1 compression, 19lbs on pump gas, 350 at the wheels. With an equal length manifold, sheet metal intake manifold, and a gt-40 compressor wheel aka sc61, he would be close to 400whp on pump gas. </TD></TR></TABLE>OK so he makes that much power but how responsive is the car? Another thing to think about is drivabilty if you have to wait for 5000rpms for the turbo to begin spooling its not much of a street car... My car is driven mostly off boost because work is not to far away and the car takes forever to warm up. With standard compression my car still go's ok without boosting.