rmcdaniels

Yes, my Dart-block B-series makes Pamela look natural.


I think that you have to throw out the Eaton M90 compressor map with the Magnum Powers case. As some of us have seen with the Endyn-modified M62's, changing the ports on the case changes the efficiency of the blower, making it more efficient pushing higher pressure ratios at greater RPM. Charles makes a custom case that comes from his own casting, and the ports are nothing like a factory M90, you coundn't even port an Eaton case to get the ports that he's got on the MPx case. He's also got a supercharger test stand and has meen modifying blowers for a long time. I'll see if I can get a compresspr map for an M90 with his MPx blower case. Actually I'll just link Charles to this thread, I'm sure that he could explain it better than me.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Riake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This 'partner' of yours</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually Charles and I do not have any business relationship beyond my being a customer of his. If there is enough interest and I can convinve Charles to make a CCW blower for me, then I'd fabricate a mounting plate, manifolds, have a custom crank pulley made for it, put it on my race car, get it tuned, and take it to the track to datalog its performance and see if I could break it. After I got it sorted out I'd send my fabricated pieces back to Charles if he thought there was enough interest to justify him making a kit and he could use my pieces to generate his production castings if he wanted to.


A CCW TVS blower would be interesting. I'd buy one if Eaton would sell one to me, but who knows what blower/s they will decide to make in a CCW version or when they will release them. An Eaton engineer at SEMA told JDogg that they will release a CCW M62 replacement in Q3, but I've never been able to get anyone to confirm it. They could also do something like use a blower that is too small to support the amount of air that a built B-series can move for their CCW offering, and then we'd have another M62 situation. Plus new blowers are expensive, while there's thousands of M90 blowers out there in good shape to be had for very cheap.

Kevin

I think this is a great idea although 500whp seems a bit optimistic. Im suprised no one has offered an m90 kit already.

CivicVX94

ooooo...could still have a bov and fmic..i'm interested
what's the max whp one of these could supply? you say 500+ but how big is that plus?

rmcdaniels

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Question: If it was really this easy to make 500+ WHP with a supercharger on a 2 liter engine, why haven't we seen any K20s with an M90 yet? (I thought the K series turned CW, and only the B and H turned CCW, but correct me if I'm wrong...)

Also, doesn't the Chevy Cobalt SS Supercharged come with a CW spinning 2 liter? Has anyone slapped an M90 on one of them? Basically, are there any previous examples of an M90 supercharged 2 liter making that kind of power?

Sorry for throwing so much doubt into this thread. To add a positive note, I'm in if you can get the adapter kits produced and it makes anything over 350 WHP on an otherwise stock B18C1.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Keep the doubt coming, I'd rather someone figure out a catch now than after I sink crazy $ into getting this done.

K's -w- big blowers:

http://www.redshiftmotorsports...t=101

Check out option #4, a 2300ax is a 140 CI blower, which is huge.


Here's a homegrown one:

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25610


And my personal favorite:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1990082


There's some talk on the Cobalt boards about putting a bigger blower on them, but nobody's got a kit out yet that I know of.

It's actually not easy to make an M90 work CCW, which is probably why nobody's done it yet, and I had pretty much junked the idea until I talked to Charles, but I think that he can do it if he wants to. It's also not easy to make a blower make more power than it was designed for, but there's plenty of people that have been doing that for years.

gogunkergorilla

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's actually not easy to make an M90 work CCW, which is probably why nobody's done it yet</TD></TR></TABLE>

it's been done before, just not for a honda...the engineer i spoke with at magnuson said hes made them for applications where it had to be mounted 180 degrees...i don't know exactly what...as soon as he said he could do it i started flipping through my wallet looking for my credit card.....

actually i heard of a case where someone just flipped the rotors and cut the shafts or something to make it fit back together again...it supposedly worked, but i don't know how well it held up.

how much extra cfm can you get from that custom case??

rmcdaniels

Yeah, Charles e-mailed me today, he thinks that there may be a relatively easy way to reverse it.

rmcdaniels

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CivicVX94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ooooo...could still have a bov and fmic..i'm interested
what's the max whp one of these could supply? you say 500+ but how big is that plus?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Probably not much, 500 WHP would really be pushing a 90 CI blower. Of course he also makes a 112 CI blower.

gogunkergorilla

do you mean easy for a machinist in a workshop with specialized equipment or easy for an overzealous driveway mechanic with a couple of hand tools??

those things are a dime a dozen anyway... i might buy one just to tear it apart.

rmcdaniels

Some info from Charles:

"One thing people don't realize is Eaton built the original blower for a street car, not a performance or race car so the port timing is limited to keep noise levels down to pass Fed regulations. The MPx can flow a whole lot more air than a stock Eaton, i.e., its volumetric efficiency at 18k is about 87%. On engine dynos we have seen 750 cfm plus. The other thing is the MPx output temperature is much lower then a M90. You might post pics of the MPx case to show it is not your typical Eaton."


750 CFM (depending on the adiabatic efficiency) could let me run 18 PSI to 8000 RPM on my 2.2L B-series. I'd be well over 400 WHP, probably closer to 500 with a good tune.


Here are some pics of the CW MPx case that I just picked up for my K-series:


Blower with new case:




Note the huge exit port:




Here's the inlet port, it is at least twice the size of a stock inlet port. This is huge:




And the back side, this is a completely different casting from the Eaton castings:

rmcdaniels

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you mean easy for a machinist in a workshop with specialized equipment or easy for an overzealous driveway mechanic with a couple of hand tools??

those things are a dime a dozen anyway... i might buy one just to tear it apart.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Easy for a shop with a press and the right fittings to fully disassemble the rotor pack, including pressing the shafts out of the rotors. I'm thinking that Embree could easily do what needs to be done.

JRSC01GS-R

what about what john from lht said about the M90 having too much parasidic load on the b series to make any real power. didnt he wind up scrapping the whole idea?


Modified by JRSC01GS-R at 4:59 PM 9/5/2007

rmcdaniels

I think that he was using a 3rd gen blower. I can't find the 3rd gen blower flow map any more, it looks like they took it off of the old Web site, but even with a 5th gen blower by the time that you turn it to 14000 RPM and try to push 700 CFM with it, the efficiency is down in the 40's, and that's at a relatively low pressure ratio. At higher pressure ratios the adiabatic efficiency falls drastically and it becomes useless. A 3rd gen M90 (the T-bird blower) is significantly worse. If Charles's estimation of the performance of his blower is accurate, then I think that the modified M90 will be a lot easier to spin fast enough to make some serious power.

I'll e-mail John a link to this thread and maybe he can give us some information.

CRVRX

First off, I don't want to be another doubt poster, But I did try a stock M90 way back on a build 2.0L B motor. The first main issue I found was belt traction, The 4 rib didn't even try to work. I custom welded 6 rib pulley on the crank pulley from a B16 which ended up running 7 psi. My M62 at 8 psi was running 287whp at the time on the same motor, the M90 made more low down power but would loose it up top from 7K on. We had no belp slipage so we put it down to excesive draw on the motor, it wasn't intercooler like the M62 ,so the intake temps ran up around 200F mark.
I would love to build a big blower kit for Hondas, I don't think the M90 or even the M112 is the answer, there draw so much off the motor and there intake temp sky rocket after about 6 psi. Most OEM non intercooler SC cars seem to run at 6-7 psi for this reason.I think light rotors would help to combat expansion and parastatic loss.
That been said, the best way to find new things is to Just do it.
I was told a SC wouldn't fit a CRX with a B series. I was the first to do it in 1998 . I was also told an intercooler wouldn't work with the Jackson kit -We have the patant and sold 500+.
I will keep an eye on this thread,I'm interested to see your results Roger. Good luck.

rmcdaniels

Was the M90 mounted under a JR manifold?

gogunkergorilla

really!!! how did you make it work on a b series...you talk like its a bolt in affair but its far from it....please explain

i wouldn't have figured the belt to be the first main issue....i mean once you get the m90 spinning the same way as the b, dealing with belt should be easy by comparison.


Modified by gogunkergorilla at 7:06 AM 5/30/2007

CRVRX

The manifold started out as a jackson but modded quiet a bit. To spin the blower the CCW we took the nose drive and flipped it the other way around .Most of the holes lined up the rest we drilled and taped. It was not straight forward by any means.

rmcdaniels

I don't suppose that you still have that manifold laying around? Although it probably wouldn't work for what I want to do, as I want at least 8 ribs from the crank to the blower.

CRVRX

I don't have anything left from it , I had more money in it than care to think about and somone made me offer on it I couldn't refuse.

rmcdaniels

Oh well, I'll pop the nose off of my M90 after work and take a look at it. If I could reverse this thing without messing with the case or rotor plate than I'll give it a shot with my current M90. I just don't remember the gear on the opposite rotor having the posts on it to engage the coupler for the nose drive.

gogunkergorilla

i'll bet if you had ported the case it would have worked fine. the 3.8l its designed for redlines at 5500 but thats when a b series is just coming to life...

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
he also makes a 112 CI blower.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ding ding ding. Really, **** an M90.

The big problem here is lack of easy boost control and all the freaking uncontrollable power an M112 would create in the midrange, and in the lower gears. I'm not a big expert on Roots... cycle the bypass to control actual airmass entering the engine?

PS I like the CAM dyno sheets. Tell Jeff Creech I said hi the next time you are there.

rmcdaniels

I think that boost control will be relatively simple. I'm not integrating the blower into the intake manifold like a JRSC, so I can just put a waste gate on the charge piping and use the electronic boost controller/solenoid setup that I already have from my turbo setups. Same principle for a bypass, I'm not using a MAF, blow off excess boost to atmo and let the extra fresh air across the blower contribute to combating heat soak. As long as I get rid of the pressure differential across the blower I get rid of most of the adiabatic inefficiency of a Roots blower. That way I don't have to relocate the TB.

CivicVX94

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The big problem here is lack of easy boost control and all the freaking uncontrollable power an M112 would create in the midrange, </TD></TR></TABLE>any traditional wg and boost controller could solve the boost control issue. alot of drag cars mount a wg on the charge piping as a secondary form of boost control. and the synapse wg-or a similar boost controller/wg combo-could help with too much midrange power by changing the spring rate.

Madness

I'm just a turbo guy reading out of curiosity, and I wondered if you had considered something, regarding driving your chargers. Why not mount your charger with the nose facing the passenger side, and use a shaft and gear assembly to turn it the needed direction? No need to machine cases and rotors. Just fab a new drive assembly and drive gears.

PS: If you mount something this large in place of the ac and ps, how the hell is it going to clear the badass header it is going to need?

rmcdaniels

I tried that, way too complex. In the end I wasn't confident enough in it to run it. It could probably be done, but it would require major fabrication work. After looking at the blower and what John said about flipping the nose drive around, Charles thinks that we can just drill out the other drive gear and flip the nose around. That way we wouldn't have to mess with the case or rotors. Charles can do that work in his shop pretty quickly. I'll ship him a blower this weekend to try it on.