PyroProblem

Tried to understand that but when the numbers starting mixing with the letters, my brain began to melt.

So from what little I think I understood, blow-by essentially causes the rings to rotate to some degree on all piston engines and theres nothing you can do about it, right?

OneBadTurboCRV

I am not sure who you guys are confusing me with, but I am just some dumb backwoods hick that is always trying to learn and helping when I can. I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but it still made me chuckle so I'll bite.

Terminology is a beautiful thing isn't it? Twist was repeatedly mentioned, yet rotating is the general accepted term for when the rings re-clock themselves in the bore no? With that out of the way, I am baffled by your accusations of being a Google warrior, yet use Google to try and prove a point? I guess I don't follow. I also keep forgetting how all of the magazine people just make everything up and such. Darn it, silly me. Since you obviously believe you know better than me, please do enlighten us from your experiences.

I have pulled apart many healthly engines to find the rings gaps fully in line with each other. Compression and leak-down were perfectly in acceptable ranges. Why would I do that you might ask? Well you don't know me, but I can't leave things alone. EVER. Believe me or not, like I said before I can't force you. I also am not the one getting upset that I inject some humor here and there.

Just how many piston manufacturers have you guys purchased from? I have had pistons from (no particular order) JE, Wiseco, SRP, Manley, CP, Arias, and maybe one or two more. Guess how many of them are Honda specific instructions with the pistons... Most manufacturers use standard rotation instructions - call my bluff. Go and buy a set of each for a Honda. I will wait.

I stand by what I said. If I am a fool then so be it. I don't always have to be right like some people. If you guys notice, inline engines don't have the same amount of wrist pin offsets as some of the other engines like V engines do. Let alone the horrible R/S ratios associated with them. Ever heard of a 400 SBC? LOL!

I still can't get over why I am being focused on so hard when Runnerdown said the same ****! My comment on the FSM was made because if it's such a concern then that is all the consulting you need. Not some know it alls on the Internet (not pointing fingers), and I apologize for not running home to compare the picture to one of my FSM. Again, my references to a lot of aftermarket piston manufacturers don't share the same clocking as the FSM, but yeah, Google warrior back at it! Dang.

The clocking is important, but not as important as other aspects of building engines. You clock them in hopes they stay right where they should be. A lot of times they do stay perfect and don't move a millimeter. Other times they are all over the place. Then again, I Googled that and only found pictures of kittens. Dang it. This type of crap is why I left this site 5 years ago, you do you, I will do me. If I don't know then I don't know, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong either.

Dallasb84 - Let me ask you a serious question. Did you read my latest write-up? If you did, then you know I got all that information from Google and all my SuperStreet magazines amirite?

Runnerdown

I always clock my rings 180 apart somewhat centered in the area between wrist pin and piston thrust area. Power, compression, leak down and longevity are always satisfactory to my relatively fussy standards. That's about all I have to say about that.

I tend to see people getting all hung up on things that are not really a huge deal. Yes, everything matters, but don't get under the premis exact clocking degrees will make or break your build. Here's a couple things I think people should focus on more:

Machining quality, double checking the machine shops work if possible.
How round is the bore with and without assembly stresses.
Hone finish for the rings being used.
Cleanliness of ALL the parts.
Method of piston and ring installation.

TomCat39

If it's any consolation, I was asking you directly to gather some clarity and just mentioning the pics actually did come from the FSM so even more curious for some understanding.

Simply, I know you were providing solid info based on your experience and I wanted to get a better understanding off of what I had heard prior to you speaking up.

If anyone was flaming it was the other guy.

And yes, rotation. Twisting was the best word I could think of at the time but definitely incorrect. Rotate is exactly what is meant.

I figure I'll clock with whatever mfg I go with, so if it's Honda I will do the FSM if it's Wiseco, then I'll do whatever they say.

I was under the impression clocking was just as important as everything else, seems that's not quite the case.

Then too, I thought I saw some pistons that have closed rings, haven't seen them, just read about them so no gap....

Personally, I appreciate your feedback and respect it. Thank you. Don't let one person with a hard on of hate deter you, there are those of us who recognize and appreciate the experience.

Cheers

TomCat39

Can you elaborate on this?

So far I've only seen the spring compressor style install with a little tap of a wooden dowel etc.

Are there other ways to install?

m4xwellmurd3r

I use the claw style ring expander, and an ARP taper bore compressor. a dab of oil and a little thump with my hand and every one went right in.

iirc I clocked mine between the ring and thrust surfaces, alternating 180 degrees between top, second, and oil rails.

OneBadTurboCRV

I typically always just clock mine exactly like Runnerdown said in post #28 first paragraph - 180° apart off the thrust surfaces. There are two reasons for this. 1.) I haven't ever had any problems with it. 2.) It is a universal setup (for gasoline-powered automobiles / lawn engines) with no thinking required / no extra time spent. Time is money and I value my time.

There are a few piston install methods actually. The band style that ratchets and locks. The band style that has pliers / handles (if you will) attached known as scissor types. There are also variations within variations of the band style. Then there is my favorite - the taper style. You can't beat it, in my opinion of course. (Those are the only 2 styles I am aware of - tons of variations within those basic styles though.)

With the band style you ALWAYS run the risk potentially breaking a ring even if you know what you are doing. **** happens, let's he honest here, we are only human. Things get out of line, the inner lip is in just the wrong spot to catch the edge of a ring, whatever. Stuff happens and you can't watch all the rings as they are getting compressed. With a taper ring compressor you eliminate that variable - the human one. You can also find if there is an issue as you are pressing the pistons in the bore (by hand nonetheless) rather than pounding on it with a rubber mallet / wooden handle.

The reasons so many people use the band style is because it works, they are readily available, one size fits most, and usually the biggest reason - cost. That's the biggest downside to the taper style. They are expensive in comparison, they only fit one specific bore size, but man are they nice!!! Once you use them, you won't mind waiting for one to come in the mail for your next (different bore size LOL) build.

blackeg

i started using the fixed bore compressors a few years ago. i got the wiseco ones they are like 20 bucks cheaper than the arp ones. ill never use the adjustable band one ever again.

so for you guys who clock at 180*, are you putting the oil control ring gaps on the intake side or the exhaust side? i figure top gap on the exhaust side, 2nd gap on the intake side...

m4xwellmurd3r

both my rails are on the exhaust side. 90 degrees apart, but not inline with the 2nd ring. expander gap is on the intake side, 90 degrees from the top ring.

like this iirc

http://imgur.com/KdkvFq0

PyroProblem

I clicked the image and the first thing that came to mind is "Holy crap you have bad handwriting!" lol. Just kidding man.

Runnerdown

I've never cared about intake or exhaust in relation to end gap placement. Flat engine like Subaru are a different story.

I'm all about about studying and scrutinizing pretty much any aspect of engine machining and assembly, but really... the power and magic is all in the head. And parts that attach to it.

m4xwellmurd3r

bahaha, I have terrible hand writing. my fundamentals of tech teacher in highschool told me I should either be a doctor or engineer. I became neither but I have an engineers mindset

Treyschls

Thats exactly the case. I do get hung up on things that
I dont know everything about. Thanks for the help
Thank everyone for the input!!!