Treyschls

Anyone wanna elaborate on the 180° bit for piston rings?
I have a 96 Accord F22B1 trying to get my piston rings on right..

PyroProblem

I think its mainly because you never want your ring gap on a thrust side. So it kinda has to go 180 degrees out to follow this rule.

TomCat39

Piston rings, im doing something wrong - Page 4 - D-series.org

Treyschls

Yes im this far. There is no insignia on which direction is the front of the engine or wether or not its the intake or exhaust side in the picture ^

Dallasb84

Thrust surfaces are front to back (single line) double line is the wrist pin

Treyschls

Damn man I can see that!you can hold the piston 2 ways

birdd

you can set it up like that in the diagram, but they are going to turn where they want when you run the motor!

Treyschls

Yea but whoch side is intake and which is exhaust
Which side is the front of engine

TomCat39

The rings don't twist when the motor runs, there is no twisting motion involved. It's why proper clocking of the rings is extremely important.

How do you get the idea rings will twist when there is only up and down motion present?

TomCat39

That isn't important. It's only important to make sure they are clocked properly. Whether one piston mirrors the other doesn't matter. As long as all gaps are in their respected area of the 4 quadarants it doesn't matter if it's favored on the intake or exhaust side.

Knowing me I'd most likely put the main ring gaps to the exhaust side and let the oil ring gaps be on the intake side, but I really don't think that makes a difference as it's not defined in the FSM.

PyroProblem

Ive always thought this too but There have been a few builders that corrected me and assured me that they do rotate and almost never stay in the same position. The last engine I tore down I thought for sure the ring gaps were pretty close to where they were supposed to be. I wasn't really paying attention to it and its been a while since Ive disassembled an engine down to the rings.

I don't understand how they would rotate since theres no axial(?) forces acting upon them.

And if they do in fact rotate, what's the point of indexing them in the first place?

AND as far as what side the gap goes (intake or exhaust), Seems like ive seen them recommended on either side depending on the brand/manufacturer.

I would like to hear what the pros think...

Runnerdown

This is completely false, the rings rotate on pretty much every engine. Make a note of where you installed them and then see where they wind up after some run time. I'd bet that crosshatching is the primary cause for this. I have taken out Pistons where the rings were lined up, if the parts are in good shape it won't matter much.

Dallasb84

If your rings don't move your motor will seize or eat up the liners. Your rings must freely move.

That diagram.... I wouldn't say it is wrong but it definitely doesn't match the major after markets recommendations.

If you were to line all the ring gaps in a line your compression numbers would be all over the place. Sloppy ring gaps will also cause this. I'm pretty sure the rings work on compression.

Is that the diagram for the rings you ordered? Je, Ross, etc usually send you their recommended ring gap and location with the package or it is freely available on the website. I would follow the after market tech data vs the honda tech data as Honda does some weird **** with their specs.

OneBadTurboCRV

You haven't had many engines apart have you?

https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...ation-3251065/

OneBadTurboCRV

Actually, this couldn't be any further from the truth. The top ring is usually designed for a positive twist and the second ring a negative twist. Have you ever noticed the rings are sometimes beveled in the inside edge? There is a reason for that - to induce twist. The type and amount of twist works together with ring face design as well. There is a lot more to it, but you get the idea.

Treyschls

Any positive input to offer.!!?

OneBadTurboCRV

Yes, look at your other thread that I linked previously. Also, how is correcting BAD information not positive? If you blindly want to trust the blind, then go right ahead. I can't force you to choose the correct way, only shed some light on the misinformation that gets spread around way too often. I do like the fact how you called me out but not Runnerdown for doing the same thing.

Clocking rings isn't as important as MUCH of the other things involved in building an engine. Keep the ends off the thrust surfaces and away you go. I HIGHLY suggest you purchase a Factory Service Manual if you are having a hard time. There are many ways to clock rings and most aftermarket manufacturers default to V8 settings (or a version of them) when they give you instructions anyways.

When the ring gaps are properly clearanced, most if not all of that gap disappears. This is the reason for higher power applications calling for more clearance as cylinder temperatures / pressures are usually much higher than your typical OE engine.

I am only trying to help as I always do, but sometimes it's just smacks me in the face when some people spout stuff off and it's like... well... hmm...



Yeah, kind of like that. I am not trying to be mean. It's too bad there aren't video forums yet... wait HMMMM...

Treyschls

I gotcha man. Thanks. I have a service manual
That where that picture from above. Sorry for the
Complications.

TomCat39

If the rings turn in their lands, then why is clocking them so important, they will twist and turn to what ever they want.

Or is it they only move a few mm each way so are relatively close to where you clock them?

If this is not the case, then what's the point of clocking them?

The pics are direct from the FSM.

Dallasb84

What info was bad again? All u did was Google some **** like you always do then flame someone. op didn't mention if they were stock cast moly brand rings or any info other than ask the same question in two different sub forums. Only miss I formation is telling someone to go by a fsm and pistons manufacturers use generic tech data because it works on v8s when u don't know what parts he is using. Go ahead and link to the hot rod magazine article you read online about piston rings in between being a troll and tearing motors apart mr one bad turbo I know u live for this ****. go ahead and line up your ring gaps and see what happens. Next time post the link to the hot rod online mag article you read before you interrupted this thread with your typical bullshit that doesn't add anything ever.

Anyways op u never mentioned what brand Pistons or rings you are using. Like I said go with their recommendation.

PyroProblem

The crosshatch is about the only thing I could see causing the rings to rotate.

The pistons you've taken out with the gaps aligned, was this a factory assembled engine? I assume...

It seems that most agree that the rings do in fact rotate, but how much and why? How can this be prevented?

Since the FSM specifies a correct ring orientation, is the factory not aware that the rings will rotate, making this procedure pointless? Or does this mean the rings do not rotate enough to matter?

Kinda wish I had a virgin engine to take apart now, lol

Dallasb84

You will likely score your walls and damage the control ring. Yes the rings rotate. They are oriented such to keep the compression away from the expander. Too much ring tension on the cylinder walls and a fresh hone doesn't sound very good for those guys. I suppose on a broke in motor the rings eventually find home when crud builds up. On aircraft especially lycomings stuck rings destroy liners and can overheat the piston and the liner. Movement is necessary.

I might be wrong but honda also had a delicate hone. This may have something to do with not wanting ring gap on the thrust side. Other ring and piston brands recommend it on the thrust side. Could be a number of things but I dont know. Maybe Google boy can chime in.

Dallasb84

Hopefully with a condescending meme

Dallasb84

Well.... I googled it. He will probably get mad I beat him to it. Got curious about the thrust side **** so... Here is an article I haven't finished reading but the name of it sounds like it will answer all our questionable advice and be the end all be all to ring gap hypothesisessnessisable things.

http://www.federalmogul.com/en-US/Me...S200976080.pdf

blackeg

so in my ignorance ill assume this is where the 180* apart comes from?

so if you keep the top 2 rings 90* apart from each other but the top gap is on the exhaust side and the 2nd oil scraper ring gap is off the intake side, will that make the motor more likely to get oil in the cyls etc having one of the gaps on the intake side. this is counter to the helms diagram which seems to put both of those ring gaps on the exhaust side