my setup will look more like these:
and from what I have read it's a little better to have them supporting the LCM and going rearward than going forward to a support bar. Because it's better to Compress the Radius bar than to pull on it. Are the different setups just due to inadeqoute mounting locations on some cars not allowing a rearward bar?

 

You're going to have a problem keeping the jam nuts on the heims tight on that setup. The heims will twist with suspension travel like that. All in all, that's a shitty design and very wrong on a technical level. Why not just take your suspension apart and have solid bushings made if it's hard to do a "traction bar" setup. Search a little bit around here on traction bars and you'll find alot of information on how to build them correctly.

 

Even on a track only car?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Import Power Online &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">from what I have read it's a little better to have them supporting the LCM and going rearward than going forward to a support bar. Because it's better to Compress the Radius bar than to pull on it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

</TD></TR></TABLE>

please expand on that

I am VERY seasoned in most automotive aspects. I have been wrenching on them for about 22 years. Suspension is one area I severly lack in though. Any info you can throw my way is greatly apreciated. I do't want to come off like I know about suspension, cause I don't.

 

well, i was always under the impression that 'normal' radius rods PUSH (compress) on the front crossmember. Your wheels want to go forward when you launch and leave the rest of the car behined.

i could be wrong?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, i was always under the impression that 'normal' radius rods PUSH (compress) on the front crossmember. Your wheels want to go forward when you launch and leave the rest of the car behined.

i could be wrong? </TD></TR></TABLE>

this is what I thought also. But that means on laucnh when the wheels want to go forward and the car body wants to stay behind (causing hop) the LCA is twisting in a counterclockwise spin if you are looking at the lugs of the wheel. So if a radius rod is connected to the bottom of the LCA to the front of the car then the rod will be pulled. If connected to the bottom of the LCA and anchored behind the LCA then on launch it would attemtp to compress the radius rod.

Am I missing something?

And if it's a drag only car, trailered to the track, does it matter if it is anchroed forward or backward? If so explain. Not saying I am right, this suspension thing is new to me. I can build the motor to go 142mph but this whole suspension thing confuses me.

 

There is no twisting motion going on with the control arms, except when the brakes are applied. The transmission is what is trying to twist the opposite direction of the wheel, not the control arm. The control arm is trying to drive forward.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Import Power Online &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> the LCA is twisting in a counterclockwise spin if you are looking at the lugs of the wheel. So if a radius rod is connected to the bottom of the LCA to the front of the car then the rod will be pulled. If connected to the bottom of the LCA and anchored behind the LCA then on launch it would attemtp to compress the radius rod.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There are no radial loads on the LCA or spindle during launch like there is on a rear axle housing of a RWD car (i.e. 4-link geometry on the front spindle won't work the same). DUring launch, the LCA only really experiences fore-aft forces, and vertical forces due to weight transfer.

Analogy: If you put a bearing in one hand, and then stuck a rod through it, and twisted the rod with the other hand, the hand with the bearing would barely have any radial forces at all... i'm sure there is a bit of radial force experienced by the suspension upright, but nothing usable.

 

Oh, Ok, Got it I was thinking something different.

So the Radial bar is just keeping the LCA from moving fore and aft which is due the the compression of the bushings.

Wouldn't solid bushings yeild the same results?

Explain why stopping the LCA from it's fore and aft movements differ from anchoring in front of and behind the LCA. Seems to me it wouldn't matter.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Import Power Online &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wouldn't solid bushings yeild the same results?</TD></TR></TABLE>

See Tonys comment:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why not just take your suspension apart and have solid bushings made if it's hard to do a "traction bar" setup. </TD></TR></TABLE>




<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Import Power Online &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Explain why stopping the LCA from it's fore and aft movements differ from anchoring in front of and behind the LCA. Seems to me it wouldn't matter.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not just a matter of anchoring, it is also a matter of geometry. Like what Tony was saying about my comment regarding mounting the radius rod higher or lower. He is correct in that if the radius rod mounting point is not in line with the axis of the control arm, then it would bind during movement. In that particular case though, i was thinking about a CRX or single-mounting point LCA, which is not under those same constraints in the same way. Anyway, if your control arm is moving in one axis, and your radius rod is moving in another axis, and both are solidly mounted to each other, then it will bind, and not want to function smoothly.

Also, as for having the bar in frojnt of, or behind the LCA physically, i don't hink it matters, however, the matierial you are using may have better compression strength than tensile strength, and therefore it may benefit you to mount it in front of the LCA... most times though, it'll probably come down to mounting points... it is easier to find a mounting point in the same axis in front of an LCA than it is to find that moutning point behind the LCA.

 

Ok, just so I have this right. When launching the LCA will move FORWARD at it's 2 inboard axis points correct?

The LCA has a "pin" that goes into the rear bushing and a bolted conenction on the front. The bolted front connection has a bushing on the rear but the front of the front joint sitting static has a space between the LCA and the mount. Is this the play that allows the LCA to move foward and cause the wheel hop/traction loss?

If so (remember just a track car) could I just shim the space?

 

I'm not sure what play you're talking about, I can't really picture it. The "play" that you're eliminating is the rubber bushings that are flexing.

 

What do people usually use to make harder bushings..? brass? or just an ES kit?

 

Delrin or Aluminum

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not sure what play you're talking about, I can't really picture it. The "play" that you're eliminating is the rubber bushings that are flexing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thr front mounting point is a bolt thru the LCA mounting point. Between the LCA and the mount it slides into on the rear side (not rear mount but rear of the front mount) there is a bushing. Between the Front side of the front mounting point and the mount it slides into there are no bushing adn there is a space which would allow the LCA to move forward before it hits the mounting point.

The movement we are trying to keep from occuring, is it the LCA moving Forward at it's pivot points or backward? If it is forward then I should be able to shim that space.

 

There shouldn't be anything that can move outside of a bushing flexing, ever. If there is, than that's definitely a problem. I still can't picture what you're saying, but it sounds to me like there's something wrong, that wasn't that way from the factory. You have any pics? Bottom line, the control arm is trying to drive forward under acceleration and that's what you want to stop. If you have rubber bushings, then it will move unless you change them or add points that won't flex.

 

I looked at my GF's SeR SpecV and it's the same way. Bushing on the rear space on the front

 

Oh, I see what you're saying. The actual bushing is pressed in the control arm and can't move in it's mount. Try and move it back and forth, it won't go anywhere. The bolt holds the inside part (the sleeve inside the bushing) and the outer part is pressed in the control arm. The movement you're trying to stop is the flex that the bushing itself gives in between the two.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, I see what you're saying. The actual bushing is pressed in the control arm and can't move in it's mount. Try and move it back and forth, it won't go anywhere. The bolt holds the inside part (the sleeve inside the bushing) and the outer part is pressed in the control arm. The movement you're trying to stop is the flex that the bushing itself gives in between the two.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So it is an actual twist of that connection point not a straight forward motion which allows the wheel to pivot changing caster?
Then the question (i know I keep asking questions) is can I replace that bushing pressed into that with a solid steel tube?

 

Everything still needs to be able to pivot on it's natural suspension arc. I've told you what you're trying to stop, you're going to have to figure out the best way to do it on your car. Again, the arm is not trying to twist, only move forward. Take your wheel off your car and look closely at it and how everything works.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ek9vboi2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

traction bars elminate wheel hop for FWD cars. Thats if he can even get traction, with slicks he might catch traction instead of slipping thru all the gears. you gotta remember, a car making 700+

binding only happens when the bars are not set correctly, that or there is a design flaw in the traction bars. the point of traction bars is to prevent the caster from moving back and fouth, thus breaking stuff. when that happens...wheel hop occurs.

funny you say traction bars do not work, maybe for you it dont but there are plenty of people who say it works. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Lcon bars cut 1 sec off my et and stopped my axle breakage. I love them best money i spent on my car.

 

For the connection point of the Rod/bar to the bottom of the LCA, I am guessing it's best to have it as close as possible to the LCA's Front mounting point to the car? And as Inboard as possible? And If I draw a line from the rear pivot point to front pivot point the rod should stay as close to that pivot point line to avoid bind?

I ask because aside from the one pic of the bar installed i posted here, I have never seen them installed and can not find pics of them installed anywhere.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Import Power Online &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And as Inboard as possible?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Outboard. The farther inboard you make it, you can have it actually induce load on your mounting point, and reduce the radius rods effectiveness... i.e. The farther in-board you mount it on the LCA, the more leveraged force will be against the radius rod during launch, and the movement it would be trying to control would be even smaller. So basically, it'll have more control and it'll have less force placed on it the farther outboatrd you mount it on the LCA.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Import Power Online &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And If I draw a line from the rear pivot point to front pivot point the rod should stay as close to that pivot point line to avoid bind?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea, as long as the chassis-mount point of the radius rod is on that invisible line somewhere, then yea, it would be ok.

 

Thanks everyone!

Between this thread and this one I found which was great:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=957387&page=1

I have figured it out.

Looks like honda's need the bar setup across the front where as I may not. My car has a very sturdy (used to jack the entire car up) front crossmember and it's also cross membered front to back from that front crossmember to the firewall area by two crossmembers. It's pretty sturdy. I will also shore it up with a few spots of 3/8" angle steel just to make sure it can't rotate when the radius rod is forcing into it.

This will place my setup like the honda ones, from the front to the outboard end of the LCA. I am using 3/8 mild steel for everything. I have a MIG that I use Argon mix with. I should have something semi installed by tonight.