RTW DC2R

usually you hear the term "balanced and blueprinted" when speaking about crankshafts. I am in the middle of having my bottom end completely built and was quoted "fully blueprinted". Does that imply the crank is going to balanced and blueprinted? or are they two entirely different things? If "fully blueprinted" has anything to do with balancing, then I was quoted the wrong price and want to make sure we are on the same page. I havent been able to get in touch with them yet to verify.

white rocket

I believe "blueprinting" is performed in a way that each part is weighed individually to ensure a proper balanced motor when assembly occurs. I'm not really sure the difference between the two sayings. I'm interested to hear others opinions

RTW DC2R

sort of like assuming the crank is already perfectly balanced, and just ensuring the parts you throw on it dont throw off the balance?

Dave_B

Blueprinting is basically documenting of the engine building. IE clearences, tolerances and weights of the parts. This is offical document so that anyone else later on, needs to open the engine and order parts or whatever knows exactly what is there and what is done.

The Balancing is the actually balancing of the parts.

RTW DC2R

thanks

Dave_B

Joo got it.

white rocket

Dave_B pwns

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Blueprinting is basically documenting of the engine building. IE clearences, tolerances and weights of the parts. This is offical document so that anyone else later on, needs to open the engine and order parts or whatever knows exactly what is there and what is done.

The Balancing is the actually balancing of the parts.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, blueprinting refers to a process by which the engine is assembled or rebuilt with careful attention paid to all balance and tolerances in such a way as to provide maximum performance and/or longevity. For example, many components within an engine have a stated allowable range of tolerance (e.g., +/- 0.00x"). When an engine is "blueprinted", these tolerances are all brought or held as close to their "ideal" figures as possible, rather than simply being left "within spec".

While I am not certain exactly where the term blueprinting originated, I would assume it derives from the fact that the "blueprints" for the engine were originally used to perform the process.

RTW DC2R

thanks padawan. so it doesnt really refer to the physical act of machining or balancing the crank then. i think thats all i really needed.

Mugen Mike

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so it doesnt really refer to the physical act of machining or balancing the crank then. i think thats all i really needed. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct. Balancing and Blueprinting are two seperate processes, but are often done at the same time when building a motor.

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so it doesnt really refer to the physical act of machining or balancing the crank then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, not directly. I think with regard to the crank, the term would only more or less involve the choice of bearings during assembly. Assuming the crank has no physical damage (gouging, scoring, etc.) it will most likely simply be rotationally balanced by the shop.

nholmes

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by white rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dave_B pwns </TD></TR></TABLE>

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

Blueprintint = clearances
balancing = all parts within .xxx of each other gram wise

basic explanation

Dave_B

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aquafina &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Blueprintint = clearances
balancing = all parts within .xxx of each other gram wise

basic explanation</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dave_B does not PWN, he has been around cars, fast ones at that, since he can remember. To me it's common sense stuff.

As for Blueprint = clearances, no not that simple. It's kinda like a legally binding document. Very accurate and something that another "lawyer" could read and totally understand what it is. And padawan went into further detail. He's right, they dont' just blueprint "within spec", it's more like as close to "perfect" (depending on application) tolerance.

I could scan a sample from the stang if you'd like. LMK.

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

I said basic geesh.

I hate blueprinting. Takes forever. And people wonder why it cost so much to have an engine built.

SecretAgent

Blueprinting has NOTHING to do with balancing and balancing has NOTHING to do with blueprinting.

Blueprinting is machining every aspect of the motor to be exactly like the manufacturer blueprints say it should. All angles correct, clearances perfectly in spec, so that every part of the motor is exactly like the blueprint says it should be. This practice is very uneccessary in modern motors because casting and machining techniques have been refined over the years so there aren't as many variences whan a block or part is cast/forged. The only time I could recommend this extremely expensive practice is while doing a high budget race motor build where every 1/100th of a horsepower counts.

Balancing is making sure the entire rotating assembly is balanced. Making sure each piston weighs the same as the other pistons and each rod weighs as much as the other rods. The crank shaft is also balanced both rotationally and from end to end. This minimizes the effects of harmonic vibration throughout the motor (picture an unbalanced tire and how it effects ride quality, an unbalanced crankshaft will behave the same way and tear apart your bearings and other moving parts in the engine).

These two terms unfortunately have been confused together since the dawn of the automobile, and as such, many machine shops either don't know what the term really means, or know that you don't, so they're going to make a few extra bucks off of you.

RTW DC2R

so you are saying I shouldnt even bother with blueprinting the bottom end? at the very least, doesnt that ensure that everything is within spec and would be better to do than not to do?

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

You can put it together within spec and be fine.

If you want to control more aspects of it (power, longevity +/-, etc) then blueprint it. Have time set aside though as it takes a long time.

If you blueprint it, talk with some experienced builders and milk what you can from them (clearances, etc). Good luck with that though.

Big Phat R

Balanced &gt;&gt;&gt; Blueprinted

Get your rotating assembly fully balanced = motor as smooth as butta

tnord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SecretAgent &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This practice is very uneccessary in modern motors because casting and machining techniques have been refined over the years so there aren't as many variences whan a block or part is cast/forged. The only time I could recommend this extremely expensive practice is while doing a high budget race motor build where every 1/100th of a horsepower counts.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

while it is true that modern motors are built better than they used to be, i will have to disagree that the process is very unneccessary. have you taken apart a motor before? i haven't looked into as many as people whos job it is to build engines, but i have torn apart a few. the castings are not perfect by any means, valves do not seat perfectly, etc. there is power to be gained here. a fully balanced and blueprinted motor will cost you around 3500-4000 and will yield somewhere between 5-10whp on your average 4cyl, far more than the 1/100hp you refer to. i know it seems expensive, but you guys spend that on wheels/tires or jdm front ends all the time.

RTW DC2R

the work is being done by a top notch shop, so I would expect the best possible work done. they did mention that normally when they are asked to balance a crank, they really dont even have to remove any material unless the crank has been damaged. otherwise it should be fine and would just need to be blueprinted for assembly.

88 rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Balanced &gt;&gt;&gt; Blueprinted

Get your rotating assembly fully balanced = motor as smooth as butta</TD></TR></TABLE>


Yea, but if everything is blueprinted then it should all essentially be balanced. You can have a motor that is balanced but not to ideal Honda specs. If you're motor is built to IDEAL Honda engineered specs then it should essentialy be balanced in and out. Kind of like taking the perfect CAD drawing from the computer and turning it into the real thing.

SecretAgent

i've taken apart and built probably close to 100 motors and come from a family of machinsts and hot rod builders. I've NEVER seen a honda motor have any fault that would warrant spending that kind of money to fix. Honda does EXTREMELY well when building their motors. As do almost all modern manufacturers (Domestic V8's excluded, they're still in the dark ages). But as far as our high output 4 cylinders go, I've never come across one that would benefit 10whp just from being blueprinted. Most of that power is going to come from balancing the rotating assembly and modifying bearing and ring clearances for performance applications.

tnord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SecretAgent &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've taken apart and built probably close to 100 motors and come from a family of machinsts and hot rod builders. I've NEVER seen a honda motor have any fault that would warrant spending that kind of money to fix. Honda does EXTREMELY well when building their motors. As do almost all modern manufacturers (Domestic V8's excluded, they're still in the dark ages). But as far as our high output 4 cylinders go, I've never come across one that would benefit 10whp just from being blueprinted. Most of that power is going to come from balancing the rotating assembly and modifying bearing and ring clearances for performance applications.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think we're splitting hairs between us here, but that's fine...it's interesting.

my limited experience with building motors is strictly in the mazda miata world. the miata motors that come back from the pro builders do have casting flashes removed, valve seats reground, and probably some other things done in the head that i haven't seen. but anyway....there is work done in there. it's tough to tell just how much power comes from the balancing part of it, and how much comes from the blueprinting part of it, as they are never done separate of each other. and fact of the matter is, B&B'd miata motors come back from the builders 5-10whp stronger.

i will concede that when talking about the VTEC b18's, b16's, k20's, and f20's of the world the casting process is probably better than what i have seen. after all, that's part of how they get so much power out of little displacement. but when talking about D series motors and other older powerplants i would wager that things are far less perfect inside, and could stand to benefit from these procedures. i understand that in this little corner of the automotive world, the B18C5 may not benefit much at all from these processes, but sometimes it's nice to be aware of things going on outside the bubble.