petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DutchITR1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, the countershaft is not the cause of the problem then? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Should not be. True, all the right side of the tranny is more noisy than the rest, but the noise doesn't change when the wheels start to spin. So I assume it's somewhere in the mainshaft/clutch. But hell I don't know what

acy76

This may not help much, but it seems that the 5th-reverse shift fork (the top of the "bar" where you are hearing the most noise) could be acting just like your stethoscope - the internal noises are travelling through the fork and can be heard at the spot where it contacts the case.

Since the fork rides on the 5-R synchro sleeve, I would suspect the problem lies either in the sleeve/hub or the bearings near it (some of which you have already replaced). Unless the fork itself is loose (the bushing is worn in the case, perhaps?).

97mini-me

I think it's your front bearing on the mainshaft. I took my d series tranny apart because I had a severe case of your scenario and the bearing was broken apart. You replaced the rear bearing, but not the front. The bearing I am referring to is right inside of the tranny about 1.5 in. behind the shaft that sticks out. I am not sure of the technical name for it. I'm willing to almost bet $ that is it.

-Brian

DutchITR1689

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97mini-me &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You replaced the rear bearing, but not the front. The bearing I am referring to is right inside of the tranny about 1.5 in. behind the shaft that sticks out. I am not sure of the technical name for it. I'm willing to almost bet $ that is it.

-Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>
He did replace that one. Look at the second picture on the first page....

Syner-G-Racing LLC

you said you replaced the throwout bearing...did you replace your pilot bearing?

Chris F

Have you tried the magic GM Synchromesh snake oil yet? Maybe, before you give up, swap some in...... not THAT expensive...


Good luck with this one. Persistance (and free time) seem to be on your side.
Chris

snatch

I had replied on the previous thread that I had the same problem, but have also replaced the bearings in my Civic EX tranny. I also replaced the clutch about 2 months ago. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I figured I'd chime in since I have the same issue. Sometimes when I take off from a stop though, and put some stress on the clutch and tranny by taking off a little faster, I can hear kind of a screeching noise from somewhere in the engine. It's hard to tell where because I have to be driving the car, but could that be the clutch or would it be a bearing? When I put everything back in my tranny, it all went in the same way it came out. And it works fine, just the annoying noises. Is a problem like ours likely to get worse...?I suppose that might be hard to tell without knowing what that is. I have asked about this problem on another board, and was told it was the bearings...seems hard to understand if they've been replaced.

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syner-G-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you said you replaced the throwout bearing...did you replace your pilot bearing? </TD></TR></TABLE>
No, I didn't yet. I will when I take it apart again (this weekend).

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ccfries &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good luck with this one. Persistance (and free time) seem to be on your side.
Chris
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks, I usually want to understand all about the problem, that's why I'm asking so many times, in depth etc. I hope it can help also someone else with similar problems.

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ****** &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had replied on the previous thread that I had the same problem, but have also replaced the bearings in my Civic EX tranny. I also replaced the clutch about 2 months ago. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I figured I'd chime in since I have the same issue. Sometimes when I take off from a stop though, and put some stress on the clutch and tranny by taking off a little faster, I can hear kind of a screeching noise from somewhere in the engine. It's hard to tell where because I have to be driving the car, but could that be the clutch or would it be a bearing? When I put everything back in my tranny, it all went in the same way it came out. And it works fine, just the annoying noises. Is a problem like ours likely to get worse...?I suppose that might be hard to tell without knowing what that is. I have asked about this problem on another board, and was told it was the bearings...seems hard to understand if they've been replaced. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It seems that I'm really not alone with this problem. Good question.....is it dangerous to drive with these noises? I mean, we replaced all the bearings, so they can't come into pieces and destroy our trannies.

snatch

And one more thing, I did try the GM synchromesh tranny oil...no difference.

DaX

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It seems that I'm really not alone with this problem. Good question.....is it dangerous to drive with these noises? I mean, we replaced all the bearings, so they can't come into pieces and destroy our trannies.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I had my main shaft bearing explode in my VX tranny while I was driving it. The results were not pretty...it chewed up the clutch bell housing beyond repair, obviously the bearing, the main shaft was galled and chewed, and there were pieces of the main seal buried under the oil guides clogging them up. If you hear a noise, I suggest fixing it before it kills your tranny. I did get a VERY nice D-series clutch alignment tool out of the whole ordeal though.

snatch

Did you say you're pulling it out this weekend? Let me know if you figure anything out. I still haven't touched mine, but it started making a noise the other day I noticed. If it's in second, and I roll to about 3k RPM's, and then let off, I get a sort of whirring/spinning sound, but it's kind of high pitched. It will keep this up until I push the clutch in, then immediately it's gone. WTF? Is it just the tranny wearing down more?

ultimatehonda

I have gone through everything you are going right now....In the last year I have droped the tranny 3 times...first time to install clutch...2nd time to fix the clutch install I did (reversed the disk so car would not go into gear), and the 3rd time was to take apart the tranny to replace mainshaft bearing and angular bearing (bearing on the other side of the mainshaft). I still hear the noise too. And its exactly the same as yours. I think its my pilot bearing which I didnt check the last time I droped the tranny. THe T.O. Bearing was good. Let us know how it goes...and replace your pilot bearing....GOOD LUCK

snatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ultimatehonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... and the 3rd time was to take apart the tranny to replace mainshaft bearing and angular bearing (bearing on the other side of the mainshaft). I still hear the noise too. And its exactly the same as yours. I think its my pilot bearing which I didnt check the last time I droped the tranny. THe T.O. Bearing was good. Let us know how it goes...and replace your pilot bearing....GOOD LUCK </TD></TR></TABLE>

So you replaced the bearings in your tranny also, and you still have the same noise? How sure are you it's the pilot bearing?

ultimatehonda

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ****** &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So you replaced the bearings in your tranny also, and you still have the same noise? How sure are you it's the pilot bearing?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Last time I dropped the tranny I didnt take the clutch off, but I stuck my finger through the assembly to check the pilot bearing and it spined a little rough but I didnt think about it. Then the T.B. I checked and it was like new...it only had about 10k on it. The only thing I can think of is the pilot bearing being bad, and I have the same syntoms as PETRV. Hopefully that is the problem.

petrv

Yes, I'm gonna drop and open it today or tommorow. I personally think is something with the clearances, but I'm not sure of course. I din't ever think that worjking on a tranny is so time+money consuming, so much tries etc. There is unfortunatelly nothing "sure" there.

I don't know the purpose of the pilot bearing - IMO it sits between the flywheel and the mainshaft - both of them are spinning the same speed, right? So why is it there? Preludes don't have any.

DaX

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, I'm gonna drop and open it today or tommorow. I personally think is something with the clearances, but I'm not sure of course. I din't ever think that worjking on a tranny is so time+money consuming, so much tries etc. There is unfortunatelly nothing "sure" there.

I don't know the purpose of the pilot bearing - IMO it sits between the flywheel and the mainshaft - both of them are spinning the same speed, right? So why is it there? Preludes don't have any.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Pilot bearing supports the end of the main shaft...with all the torque applied to the shaft, it is very beneficial to have it firmly supported at both ends. The bearing actually turns when the clutch pedal is pushed in [flywheel spinning, mainshaft stopped].

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The pilot bearing actually turns when the clutch pedal is pushed in [flywheel spinning, mainshaft stopped].</TD></TR></TABLE>
So in my case it should not be my pilot bearing - since my noise is present only with clutch pedal released (both mainshaft and flywheel spin the same speed)

petrv

So, today I opened the trany, here are the news:

1) The pilot bearing and the clutch itself look OK to me:


2) When I turn the manshaft (tranny still closed), there is no noise.

3) Prior to opening it, I measured the mainshaft thrust clearance with a dial gauge: within specification. Then I opened the tranny and measured all the other clearances, including mainshaft, countershaft and all other clearances mentioned in the Helms: all of them are OK, the thrust shim on the mainshaft is exactly what should be there.

4) After opening, I tried to check everything. First I noticed that the mainshaft (on the right side) is higher than the countershaft (left):


I don't know if it's supposed to be like this, I assume that the spring washer will compress and the mainshaft will move down a bit.

5) The clearence between the big wheel on the bottom of the countershaft anf the LSD is only 0.7mm - isn't it too low?


6) All the shift forks have the same play in their holes in the housing, there is alwas some play, it's not tight.

7) The "hands" of all the shift forks are worn somehow:


8) When checking the mainshaft, I noticed that the highest wheel has some play, while others don't. Should it have any play?


9) When I disassembled the mainshaft and cleaned everything with a degreaser, I turned all the wheels on it's bearings. The highest wheel made some "RRRRR" rattling noise, very similar to the noise I've heard with the sthetoscope. Additionally, the longest shift fork sits near this wheel, so it could amplify the rattling sound the I heard. All other wheels on the mainshaft made some noise (all were degreased), but the highest wheel made maximum noise and the rattling noise.


10) Countershaft bearings were in a better condition, but were also noisy a bit.

So, I'm going to replace all the small bearings in the mainshaft (3x#16 and #17:

and countershaft (#15 + #16):


Should I replace also the rollers inside the bearings? I dunno if they can be worn so making the play of the bearings:

It would be #11+#12 for the mainshaft and #8+#9 for the countershaft.


What do you think?

DutchITR1689

Looks like your tranny is worn out more than you think. I would say, check all the clearances and bearings and just follow all the steps in the Helms manual. So, also the clearances of the countershaft and gears and the tapered bearing clearances of the LSD. Do a complete overhaul. Otherwise you'll maybe have to open it again.

I thought all Euro ITRs come with ball bearings on the LSD, but you have tapered roller bearings.
BTW. what you called "wheels", are called gears..

DaX

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't worry about replacing the needle bearing sleeves. Go ahead and replace the needle bearings like you are planning on though. Hope it fixes your problem. Also remember when replacing #16 on the countershaft, you'll need two of them...#16 is actually only one half of the bearing.

ultimatehonda

Seeing these pictures brings back painfull memories....I have a weird feeling that the problem may be those bearings, but what is weird is that when the clutch is disengaged it takes 1-2 seconds for the mainshaft to stop spining, my tranny noise stops right when I disengage the clutch so I dont know why it would be those bearings. Also the noise fluctuates with the engine speed....sometimes it becomes silent and when the engine speed changes it gets noise again....it seems like it does it when a certain load is present. Let us know how it goes, and how hard it was to disassmeble the mainshaft? Any special tools needed?

DavidR

to answer your question about the counter shaft being a different height, this is normal when the case is off. Once you install the case and put the snap ring in the outter bearing, it holds the counter shaft into place. I recently installed a LSD into my B16 tranny and noticed the same thing, but all is well.

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ultimatehonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how hard it was to disassmeble the mainshaft? Any special tools needed?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's quite simple, just use hammer to the shaft several times and the bearing will pop up. You must hold all the mainshaft together, or aal the gears will fly all over the room, like it happened me for the first time :-)