DaX

iTrader: (1)

Good point. Let me think about this...on the DX tranny, I'm pretty sure it would roar standind still in neutral, and I it was the second countershaft bearing.

You're right...the counterhsaft itself isn't spinning. The only bearings turning on the countershaft while in neutral with the clutch out are the needle bearings under 1st & 2nd gear...but the noise really does sound like a ball bearing.

I'm going to have to think about this. Maybe you should give Gear-Speed a call @ 909.476.7252 ...they are California, so give them a few hours to wake up if you do decide to call. They are pretty friendly guys there.

sylvain

The stock disk is not blue ! Witch sort of disk does he put ?

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sylvain &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The stock disk is not blue ! Witch sort of disk does he put ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now I can see it too from the pic. I really dontknow, he told me that Honda replaced it for him. Could any aftermarket disc make this noise?

DaX

iTrader: (1)

I doubt it's your clutch. But when you have the tranny off, it's a 15 minute job to take the pressure plate off and inspect the clutch disk...if it will make you feel better.

sylvain

I think it's a good question ! Probably a too large disk who spins on the side of the plate?

petrv

Could I drop the tranny down and start the engine withou the tranny, only with the clutch? Maybe I could check if the clutch is making that noise. With the clutch pedal line disconnected, the clutch is "connected/enganged" or "released"?

sylvain

Engage i suppose because the fork don't press on the plate to release the disk. But it could be the big bearing too.

I think you can try this.

DaX

iTrader: (1)

I would not recommend starting the engine without the tranny connected. This is because you only have one engine mount holding the engine in, and the rest of the engine supported by a jack. In theory, it will work, but could be dangerous.

Yes, the clutch is engaged when there is no tranny...I don't know how you'd disengage it.

johnzm

i dunno how u'd start it considering the starter attaches to the trans..

six_speed

did you lube up all the bearings that you replaced after you put it back?

from the sound clip, it sounds constant as you disengage/engage the transmission.

or it could be

gear rollover noise cause by an engine's torsional vibrations, and clutch throw-out bearing noise. the Gear Rollover noise will disappear once the transmission is engage in a gear. So have you driven it and notice the noise to be gone?


Modified by Humping_dragon at 6:33 PM 8/13/2004

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Humping_dragon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">did you lube up all the bearings that you replaced after you put it back?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, of course.

petrv

UPDATE

Today, I used a sthetoscope with some long bar to amplify and listen to the noises.


I found no noises near the clutch area, but I found many noises on the opposite side - near the right wheel, where the mainshaft, coutersahft bearings and the bar sit. There are some "RRRRR" ratling noises, that I tried to record (engine at 3000rpm, staying in neutral and pulsating with the clutch pedal):

Noise recorded outside, about 0.5m from the right side of the tranny: http://www.volny.cz/veitel/itr/tranny/far.mp3

Noise recorded near, about 5cm (2 inch) from the mainshaft bearing: http://www.volny.cz/veitel/itr/tranny/near.mp3. Note that here I push and release the clutch pedal more quickly to show that the noise stops really immediatelly after I push the clutch pedal and comes immediately when I release it.

The "RRRR" noise seems to be all over the right side of the tranny, most noticable in the small area where the longest "bar" sits in the housing. The "RRRR" noise is almost everywhere (the sthetoscope is probably not able to localize it accurate), some other peaks are in the main/countershaft bearings area. There is also some clicking noise where the second "bar" sits in the housing.


It's interesting, because I replaced both the main and countershaft bearings on this side, so I don't know where are the noises coming from.

Anyway, we didn't measure any of the clearences in the tranny when reassemling - could this be a problem? The tranny has 130kkm (85kmiles) on it. From my point of view, it looks like something is loose there, like the housing (cover) was too high and the parts inside are loose.

When I'm at idle (800rpm), I hear only standard "whm" noise in all areas, no rattling. The rattling starts in higher engine speeds. When I rev it, I can hear it even at 6000rpm.

I checked two other D-series trannies with the sthetoscope and both kept the initial "whm" noise that didn't change into any rattling when revved.

DutchITR1689

It could be the mainshaft thrust clearance: page 13-38 on the Helms manual.
Was the spring washer also ok?

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Humping_dragon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">gear rollover noise cause by an engine's torsional vibrations, and clutch throw-out bearing noise. the Gear Rollover noise will disappear once the transmission is engage in a gear. So have you driven it and notice the noise to be gone?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The noise is speed and gear independent - if I cruise let's say 100kph/60mph in 5th gear and push/release the clutch pedal while holding the accelerator (so the engine spped stays constant), the noise is the same as if I'm standing still and not in a gear.

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DutchITR1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It could be the mainshaft thrust clearance: page 13-38 on the Helms manual.
Was the spring washer also ok?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now I realize, that we first forgot to insert the washer and the spring washer under the mainshaft, so we had to remove it and I personally inserted the two washers on the bearing:

The spring washer was flat, not that conical like on this picture!!! It looked like a common washer to me, when we disassembled it, I just tried to remember "the smaller washer on the bottom, the bigger on the top". Maybe it was very little conical, but not like that.

I will try to ask my co-worker (in fact he is a master and I'm just some helper , but I'm "sure" it was flat.


Modified by petrv at 7:28 AM 8/16/2004

DutchITR1689

So, time to take it apart again?

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DutchITR1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, time to take it apart again?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes

I ordered the spring washer today. When it comes, I wil try to do:

1) drop the tranny
2) check the LSD clearence, while the tranny is still closed
3) open it and change the spring washer, just to be sure it is OK
4) check the mainshaft thrust clearence, buy the right thrust shim, close the tranny and check the clearence of the mainsshaft with a dial indicator (page 13-40 in Helms).

Hope this helps! Otherwise I don't know.

I have some questions about measurement of the mainshaft thrust clearence:

What washer is the red circled one in this pic?

Is it the one form the mainshaft washer-spring washer combo?


Should I use a hammer to push the mainshaft as far as I can to the transmission housing for this measurement? Or how will I know that the lower mainshaft bearing in the first pic is fully pressed to the housing?

I don't understand the situation here:

Is it the same construction like in the first pic, only rotated upside down? If yes, will the bearing stay in the housing? Or the mainshaft will fall down and I have to hold it?

Thaks for yor help

JinDIESEL

i think u need a new clutch. ACT!!!

DaX

iTrader: (1)

1. The spring washer is not as exagerated in the picture...in the picture it is drawn like that so you'll know it's a spring washer and so you'll also have it oriented correctly.

2. The red washer circled in your picture is the washer shown in the picture with the spring washer.

3. For the last picture you posted...if you lay your tranny bell housing flat on the ground, with the tranny guts side facing up, this is what you're looking at. The measurement "c" in the picture is the measurement from the TOP of the bearing to the surface of the inside of the bell housing. If this measurement is in spec, you can assume the bearing is fully seated.

4. For the second to last picture you posted, you don't need to beat on anything. This measurement ["b"] just makes sure the spring washer is still "springy."

petrv

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. The spring washer is not as exagerated in the picture...in the picture it is drawn like that so you'll know it's a spring washer and so you'll also have it oriented correctly.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I bought a new one anyway...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">3. For the last picture you posted...if you lay your tranny bell housing flat on the ground, with the tranny guts side facing up, this is what you're looking at. The measurement "c" in the picture is the measurement from the TOP of the bearing to the surface of the inside of the bell housing. If this measurement is in spec, you can assume the bearing is fully seated.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, I feel like retarded , but I need to have everything clear. Is this the clearence "C"?


For the clearence "B", If I remember corectly, the lower bearing in this pic:

has a lot of play up and down (like 3-4mm). For the accurate measuring, I assume to press this bearing fully into the transmission housing and seat it in the lower possition of the play, right?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
4. For the second to last picture you posted, you don't need to beat on anything. This measurement ["b"] just makes sure the spring washer is still "springy."</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, this mainshaft thurst clearence and shims is needed to ensure that the gap in the mainshaft is the right size for the spring washer to operate corectly. Not a big clearence so the spring washer would rattle in the gap and also not a small clearence so the spring washer would be pressed too much and couldn't operate as a spring (?)

Last thing, how do you push the mainshaft up if you don't have the right Honda tool?



Thanks for the valuable help of all of you.
Petr


Modified by petrv at 6:34 AM 8/17/2004


Modified by petrv at 10:56 PM 8/16/2004

petrv

Should I change also the spring washer on the countershaft? Could this part get worn somehow?

Could this noise be caused by the 4 small springs in the clutch disc?


Modified by petrv at 5:34 AM 8/17/2004

DaX

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, I feel like retarded , but I need to have everything clear. Is this the clearence "C"?

</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. But you would measure from the INNER RACE on the bearing to the transmission housing surface...not from the outer race.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
For the clearence "B", If I remember corectly, the lower bearing in this pic:

has a lot of play up and down (like 3-4mm). For the accurate measuring, I assume to press this bearing fully into the transmission housing and seat it in the lower possition of the play, right?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes. I would set the tranny housing upside down, set the mainshaft in it's place, and lightly tap it down with a rubber mallet or dead blow hammer. You don't need to beat the **** out of anything.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, this mainshaft thurst clearence and shims is needed to ensure that the gap in the mainshaft is the right size for the spring washer to operate corectly. Not a big clearence so the spring washer would rattle in the gap and also not a small clearence so the spring washer would be pressed too much and couldn't operate as a spring (?)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct! Using the proper shims will ensure there is nothing too lose or too tight on the shaft.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Last thing, how do you push the mainshaft up if you don't have the right Honda tool?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

You could probably just grab it with your hand and pull up to check.

petrv

Thank you DaX, you are the man!

It's interesting that there is no clearence setting used on the countershaft, shift forks etc. Since the peak of the rattling noise is where the longest shift fort sits in the transmission housing

petrv

Today, I made some other research. I raised the front of the car and tried to listen to the noise with some gear, so the wheels were spinning. No change, the noise is exactly the same as with the wheels stopped. The countershaft makes the same noise as when stopped. I checked also the LSD with the sthetoscope and it's very quiet, no noise. I checked also the right side of the motor and no noise (near the crank pulley, near clutch etc.)

I could again feel a very significant peak of the rattling noise here:


I don't know what to think about it.

DutchITR1689

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Today, I made some other research. I raised the front of the car and tried to listen to the noise with some gear, so the wheels were spinning. No change, the noise is exactly the same as with the wheels stopped. The countershaft makes the same noise as when stopped. </TD></TR></TABLE>
So, the countershaft is not the cause of the problem then?