lets say im in 3rd at 50 i'm around 3000rpm do i add 1500 to that so i downshift to second and revto 4500 help i don't understand i'm new

 

its all about practice... after a while you will get to know where you should be in terms of rpms. just keep practicing and you will get it..

 

ask yourself this: when you are going 50 in second what rpm are you spinning?

that is about what you want to rev your engine to for the downshift to 2nd.

you just have to pay attention to what it does in what rpm, and as the last person said, it takes a little time..

 

Its all a feel. I've never tried to remember where to shift to....hell I barely look at the tack...its just instinct. And if in doubt, overrev it.

 

matty is correct, its when you worry about it too much that you start to screw things up, its all about feel, you'll get used to it.

 

How would you rev match. Little lost on the clutching part. Do you like clutch downshift rev and pop the clutch? or rev and pop the clutch at the sametime??

 

First you clutch, right when u press the clutch u rev to whereever u need to get it to, then u downshift and then u pop the clutch. Everything should happen quickly and seem like ur doing all those things at once, but actually ur really doing it in that order. Like everyone says, it takes time to get used to and its all about feel. Good luck

 

first off, i wear size 13's, so this may not be possible for everyone, but while braking (entering a corner), i use the right side of my right foot and blip the gas, and i do it perfect basically every time. but i've owned and driven this car for 2 years, so take that into consideration. now, about the order of events for rev matching:
1) hit the clutch pedal (to disengage the engine from the mainshaft)
2) shift to neutral (to disengage the gears from the mainshaft)
3) let go of the clutch (so that the mainshaft will spin up with the engine)
4) rev it up to where it needs to go; this takes knowing your drivetrain very well (so now the gears are going the speed of the car, and the mainshaft and engine are both where they need to be - now everything is going just the right speed)
5)just after revving it up, hit the clutch, throw it into gear, and drop the clutch pedal.
if done properly, the lever will glide into gear so easily you will barely know you're shifting. also, if done properly, you can release the clutch instantly and the car won't shudder. drop the clutch after revving it up to the wrong RPM and you'll be in for quite a shake.
i wish i could make you a video of it, but my car has no steering lubrication system yet. i'm ditching my power steering.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95lstegman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">first off, i wear size 13's, so this may not be possible for everyone, but while braking (entering a corner), i use the right side of my right foot and blip the gas, and i do it perfect basically every time. but i've owned and driven this car for 2 years, so take that into consideration. now, about the order of events for rev matching:
1) hit the clutch pedal (to disengage the engine from the mainshaft)
2) shift to neutral (to disengage the gears from the mainshaft)
3) let go of the clutch (so that the mainshaft will spin up with the engine)
4) rev it up to where it needs to go; this takes knowing your drivetrain very well (so now the gears are going the speed of the car, and the mainshaft and engine are both where they need to be - now everything is going just the right speed)
5)just after revving it up, hit the clutch, throw it into gear, and drop the clutch pedal.
if done properly, the lever will glide into gear so easily you will barely know you're shifting. also, if done properly, you can release the clutch instantly and the car won't shudder. drop the clutch after revving it up to the wrong RPM and you'll be in for quite a shake.
i wish i could make you a video of it, but my car has no steering lubrication system yet. i'm ditching my power steering.</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's double-clutching. simply rev-matching is a little different, as letting out the clutch in neutral isn't necessary.
rev matching:
say, for example, you are in 3rd @ 3000 rpm
clutch in
downshift to 2nd / rev to 4k~ 4.5k
clutch out
simple as that. just takes some practice.

 

Hehe I just did this exitingt the freeway on the way home. I was in 5th at about 60 aruond 3000 rpm then I clutched in, shift to 4th blip the throttle to about 4400 rpm then quickly and smoothly release the clutch pedal. I love the feel of downshifting like that.

 

g2ic is great for this
http://www.g2ic.com/tegtips/driving/1.html
shows u the heel to toe method, its awesome for these tight backroads.

 

Like they said above, it's all about feel, so don't look at the tach too much. The directions posted above are good, so just keep practicing.

 

Its more of a natural technique, once you slowly master downshifting without having the car jerka jerk jerk.

I just downshift, while the foot is still on the clutch, I rev it a little and slowly release the clutch until its fully engaged. You dont feel a tug if you do it right and in the right rpm's.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by [civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just downshift, while the foot is still on the clutch, I rev it a little and slowly release the clutch until its fully engaged. You dont feel a tug if you do it right and in the right rpm's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It would be much easier if you just blipped the throttle instead of slowly revving it up.

 

Well, lets rephrase that. "I quickly tap the throttle to achieve the rpm I need."

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSvtec03 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
that's double-clutching. simply rev-matching is a little different, as letting out the clutch in neutral isn't necessary.
rev matching:
say, for example, you are in 3rd @ 3000 rpm
clutch in
downshift to 2nd / rev to 4k~ 4.5k
clutch out
simple as that. just takes some practice. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct. Rev-matching is pretty much second nature to me. You really need to do it every time you downshift while the car is moving. Even if you're just slowing down and downshifting to second as you turn a street corner, you still need to rev-match to bring the engine RPM up before engaging second gear in order to minimize stress on the drivetrain. Just engaging the clutch without bringing up the revs when you downshift forces the transmission to spin the engine faster, which is very hard on the engine, transmission, clutch, hell pretty much everything.

When I rev-match, I don't really think about what I'm doing, I just do it. The throttle blip and the gear shifting happens pretty much simultaneously. Of course my 7.5 lb. flywheel makes it easier to bring the revs up (don't have to hold down the throttle as long to bring the revs up). When coming down just one gear, I just do a quick throttle blip, and it's usually close enough if not dead on. When downing 2 gears, I will either blip the throttle twice before engaging the clutch, or on fewer occasions I might hold the throttle open a bit longer. That takes more concentration, though, so usually I just blip twice if going from 5th to 3rd, or 4th to 2nd.

Double-clutch downshifting takes alot more concentration and practice to get it right (and no you do NOT do it while drag racing! ). Really it's only necessary if you've got a racing transmission w/ dog (straight-cut) gears, or if your synchros or completely shot. Otherwise you really only need to rev-match when downshifting.

As for heel-toe downshifting, that's a technique that allows for downshifting during braking (you're on the brakes, disengaging the clutch, and blipping the throttle, all at the same time, and with only 2 feet ), but that usually incorporates just rev-matching, and not actual double-clutch downshifting. If you've ever watched those Best Motoring or Option videos and seen the camera pointed at the driver's feet, you will see them heel-toe downshifting, but they're only rev-matching, not actually double-clutching as they come down in gears. They're letting the synchros do what they were designed to do and not worrying about having to hit the clutch pedal twice during cornering and downshifting.

And just to brag, I have over 190,000 miles on my transmission and I can rev-match downshift all day long with no grinds whatsoever. Just this evening I was doing some spirited driving on the way home from the office, and my tranny was shifting both up and down just as smooth as could be.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lets say im in 3rd at 50 i'm around 3000rpm do i add 1500 to that so i downshift to second and revto 4500 help i don't understand i'm new</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you are racing, downshifting to tranny brake is okay...however it is bad for your motor. I only advise doing this on a track and with a built race motor...over time it will wear out your bearings...need proof??? Read this whole thread:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1088178

It explains somewhere in there why tranny braking is a bad idea unless you have a motor built to handle the added stress and you race.

 

Hrmmm... I guess I have been "double-clutching" every time then, because I thought you had to let the clutch back out at the exact moment you blip to the new RPM for it to incorporate full synchro/layshaft/mainshaft/engine speed matching during downshifting.

The basic "blip and drop" method is only matching the engine rpm to new/upcoming ENGINE speed right? Because it seems much smoother when I do it with heel-toe doubleclutching... but pumping the clutch too, which matches the entire drivetrain.

I know it is alot harder... But I really forced my self to learn and do it all of time when Im not doing some other distracting bullsh!t while driving.

Hehe, And for the record... Until this thread I thought that "Double-Clutching" was when yo are revvin out a gear like 3rd or 4th and maybe right after vtec or a little later... you QUICKLY pump the clutch while floored to jump the rpms up near redline and pull a extra few HP to the wheels for a split second at the sacrifice of some clutch longevity. (I do not recommend doing this because it BARELY" does crap and is not anywhere near worth the wear/tear and loss of clutch material. But I have done it and it is kinda fun. haha)

So what is that called then?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HONDA_TYPE_R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If you are racing, downshifting to tranny brake is okay...however it is bad for your motor. I only advise doing this on a track and with a built race motor...over time it will wear out your bearings...need proof??? Read this whole thread:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1088178

It explains somewhere in there why tranny braking is a bad idea unless you have a motor built to handle the added stress and you race.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I read up through page 13, and from what I can gather I think problems like extra wear on bearings due to compression braking is mainly when you're up near redline and you just let off the throttle to slow the car down. This is really only going to happen on a road course when you're at the top of a gear, approacing a corner, and you let off the throttle.

What should happen is that as you're approaching the corner you're modulating the throttle to hold your speed, and then when you need to slow down you use the brakes, and not the engine, to slow the car down. As you brake, you disengage the clutch, use the heel of your right foot to blip the throttle (still braking), and then engage the clutch and go full throttle again as you exit the corner.

I will admit that I will sometimes downshift a gear or two as I approach a stop sign or red light to slow the car down. While it is probably not the best thing to do, I don't think it's really much of an issue while driving on the street. When I do that I might get up to maybe 5000 RPM at most as I downshift.

But you still need to rev-match whenever you downshift when the car is moving, to minimize drivetrain stress.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But you still need to rev-match whenever you downshift when the car is moving, to minimize drivetrain stress.</TD></TR></TABLE>

werd....IFi have to downshift i have to rev-match otherwise the 6-puck will reek havock(sp?) on me and my car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2G0S0R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hrmmm... I guess I have been "double-clutching" every time then, because I thought you had to let the clutch back out at the exact moment you blip to the new RPM for it to incorporate full synchro/layshaft/mainshaft/engine speed matching during downshifting.

The basic "blip and drop" method is only matching the engine rpm to new/upcoming ENGINE speed right? Because it seems much smoother when I do it with heel-toe doubleclutching... but pumping the clutch too, which matches the entire drivetrain.

I know it is alot harder... But I really forced my self to learn and do it all of time when Im not doing some other distracting bullsh!t while driving.

Hehe, And for the record... Until this thread I thought that "Double-Clutching" was when yo are revvin out a gear like 3rd or 4th and maybe right after vtec or a little later... you QUICKLY pump the clutch while floored to jump the rpms up near redline and pull a extra few HP to the wheels for a split second at the sacrifice of some clutch longevity. (I do not recommend doing this because it BARELY" does crap and is not anywhere near worth the wear/tear and loss of clutch material. But I have done it and it is kinda fun. haha)

So what is that called then?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well the double-clutching thing was more necessary before transmissions employed synchronizers. If your synchros are shot you might need to double-clutch downshift as you described, but if your tranny is in good shape, there's really no need for it. That's what the synchros are there for, might as well let them do their job.

And the upshifting thing you're describing sounds more like power shifting, which is holding the throttle open while shifting. This is VERY VERY VERY hard on the drivetrain and will QUICKLY cause things to break (clutch, syncrhos, among other things). I tried this on my old car at the drag strip several years ago, and ended up driving home with broken synchros (tranny popping out of gear while driving)

However what you describe, blipping the RPM higher during upshifting, is pretty pointless really. Just think about it, at any given RPM in a given gear, the RPM in the next higher gear will be lower at that same speed. What would you gain by making the engine rev higher as you shift to a higher gear in which the final RPM will be lower than it was before you blipped the throttle? I highly doubt you would gain anything, and in fact would probably lose time (if time is a factor) versus a simple and quick well-executed conventional upshift.

 

Well then if it "could" be better to doubleclutch without synchros... then if i do it while actually having synchros it could make for a long lasting combination- Even if very minute... I do alot of things that are "Unnecessary" that I might like to do because it involves going the extra yard... or maybe its just fun, or whatever. Maybe u see what im sayin maybe you don't, "forgetta boutit."

BUT, my other method i was inquiring on was not powershifting... but DURING a gear. Lets say, you just shifted and begun to rev through 3rd gear and you "QUICKLY" pop the clutch to raise your rpm, which can boost your HP at those exact few moments... without breaking traction (or maybe a lil if you mess up), and at a high rpm by slipping some clutch, while NOT fully depressing and not tapping the rev limiter... and not doing this method on a faster car. My previous integra wasnt fast at all and when i did race it up, doing this method in 3rd, and maybe 4th, could pop you a few more feet away from someone you are racing. I mean you are right next to them... door to door revvin it out and you can see a slight jump ahead as you pop it.

I have'nt wasted my time doing this on my GSR because i respect it more, and since it is faster already it in less beneficial than just revvin out my gears now. They go through much quicker, and it would probably be detrimental to "High RPM double rev 90% slippage" haha

It will help a minute amount if you have only a semi-quick car and some longer gear ratios... like my 95 RS I used to do it in, was a good candidate.

 

I don't get it, you are partially engaging the clutch when? Like after you shift out of the last gear and before you engage the next gear? The car only accelerates when the throttle is open and the clutch is fully engaged. Anything less and the car will not accelerate as much, or even not at all. The more time spent with the throttle open and the clutch fully engaged, and the less time spent with the clutch disengaged, will make for faster acceleration. This is why you want to shift as fast as possible when maximum acceleration is needed. You want to disengage the clutch and get into the next higher gear, re-engage the clutch and get back on the throttle as quickly as possible so you can continue accelerating. When you are shifting and the clutch is disengaged, the car is not accelerating (at least not as much), which is why your body shifts forward slightly when you shift. You want to minimize that amount of time in which the car is not accelerating, and doing some sort of double throttle-blipping stuff between shifts isn't going to help. I don't know, maybe I'm not understanding the technique you're describlng, but what I said is how I understand the issure regarding acceleration and upshifting.

Really the best transmission would be a sequential type in which you do not have to use the clutch or close the throttle to upshift. But we don't have sequential trannies in our Hondas now do we Now a Ferrari on the other hand....

And as I said, I have over 190,000 miles on my transmission with all original internal parts. The last 100,000 miles have been put on by me, and that's with lots of spirited driving, and the occasional autocross or drag race. My synchros are still fine, with no grinding whatsoever. The only grinding that occurs with my transmission is when I'm trying to shift too fast and don't disengage the clutch fully.

 

yes... during the acceleration through a gear, if you slip just enough clutch grip by a quick+partial clutch depression, then it will raise your engine rpms to a higher power output level (say 6800rpm... intead of the usual ~5000 rpm after your shift into 3rd or 4th.) Even though the tranny/wheels may have only accelerated their usual amount during this quick period of slippage... the engine is now at a higher rpm, so by then dropping the clutch back out quickly-&gt; it causes a slight surge of power while the engine rpms catch up with the drivetrain and you finish the now very few rpms of that gear as normal and shift into the next gear quickly and normally.

Full throttle is depressed the ENTIRE time(except shifting), and the clutch is only quickly depressed a few mm... to lighten clamping force to just past the point of sliding friction. This allows you to raise the rpms by maybe only losing a few percent of your current acceleration and building up some high rpm horsies in the meantime to drop right out. This wont work with lightened flywheels very well because you are not producing as much potential energy with a smaller reciprocating/revolving mass as you would with a heavier mass at high rpms.

On most semi-stock compact vehicles, 3rd and 4th gear dont just fly by in 2 seconds, so trying this method during those 5,6,7,etc seconds of gear "pull" can help by a few feet.

 

speaking about popping the clutch, im curious to know. Lets say u are on the freeway and then u were in 5th gear doing about 60 and at abou 3k rpm. Isn't it really bad for the drivetrain and engine to pop your clutch when u shift down to 4th or 3rd because... lets say some idiot pulled up next to u and u wanted to race?