More z10 kit observations
09-09-2001, 05:23 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (z10 geoff)
z10 this was posted on Purehonda.com, what do you have to say about the information contained in the statement?
"They're binding the suspension.
The arc of the control arms and the arc of the "radius arm" are conflicting. So instead of the upper and lower arms rotating about their bushings, the radius arm is going to push the bottem of the spindle (and the lower arm) rearward binding the bushings. This introduces all sorts of ugly non-linear effective wheel rates making the car understeer like mad.
The car may feel more nimble since the front roll rate is increaed by the effective increase in wheel rate from the binding, but the car will actually handle much worse at the limit. This will also get rid of the wheel hop, but weight transfer won't be effected so you are still limited by a front wheel drive launch."
"They're binding the suspension.
The arc of the control arms and the arc of the "radius arm" are conflicting. So instead of the upper and lower arms rotating about their bushings, the radius arm is going to push the bottem of the spindle (and the lower arm) rearward binding the bushings. This introduces all sorts of ugly non-linear effective wheel rates making the car understeer like mad.
The car may feel more nimble since the front roll rate is increaed by the effective increase in wheel rate from the binding, but the car will actually handle much worse at the limit. This will also get rid of the wheel hop, but weight transfer won't be effected so you are still limited by a front wheel drive launch."
09-09-2001, 06:02 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
Hi.
I posted the above quoted message, and here was the follow-up I posted in the same thread:
I posted the above quoted message, and here was the follow-up I posted in the same thread:
prelussion- Heim joints. Ask if any one has replaced the bushings in the control arms with heim joints as an alternative. They will not deflect or bind like bushings. Also ask if any one has before and after lap times from an auto-x or road race. Seat of the pants often means less in handling then in power, ie less then jack.
I believe this product will actually do what it says it does as far as eliminating wheel hop (if the suspension is binding it can't hop). It also probably works reasonably well under moderate cornering loads where the suspension bushings are still able to deflect. The increased wheel rate (just as if you had stiffer springs or a bigger sway bar) probably will make the car feel for stable and responsive under moderate loads, which is all they claim anyway.
In principal this product works like a number of others made for a certain rear wheel drive car I'm also familiar with the suspension dynamics of. Anyway, I'm just saying the product appears to work as advertised but it is really a band-aid in a straight line and "fools gold" for handling. There better solutions from an engineering point of view for both requirements.
I believe this product will actually do what it says it does as far as eliminating wheel hop (if the suspension is binding it can't hop). It also probably works reasonably well under moderate cornering loads where the suspension bushings are still able to deflect. The increased wheel rate (just as if you had stiffer springs or a bigger sway bar) probably will make the car feel for stable and responsive under moderate loads, which is all they claim anyway.
In principal this product works like a number of others made for a certain rear wheel drive car I'm also familiar with the suspension dynamics of. Anyway, I'm just saying the product appears to work as advertised but it is really a band-aid in a straight line and "fools gold" for handling. There better solutions from an engineering point of view for both requirements.
09-09-2001, 06:20 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Someguy)
well we'll just have to get this situation situated! :-D how about you loan me a kit, i go to the local college and w/ some police friends setup a auto-x course and record times? :-D and if it works and times are shorter i have helped u prove it to help in racing and i get to keep it?!!? :-D
09-09-2001, 07:28 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
This pictures show what I'm talking about pretty well:
You can see in this one that the front mounting point of the radius arms are inboard and upward of the line formed by the chassis mounts of the lower control arm. If you picture the suspension compressing you can see that the spindle side of the control arm and the radius arm are going to try to move though different arcs. This is going to push the spindle rearwards and outwards along the line of the radius arm as the suspension compresses. This causes the bushings to bind or resist movement in a non-linear fashion, adding effective wheel rates in an unpredictable fashion, as well as conflicting instant and roll centers. In a car which is going to understeer at the limit in the first place, that just makes a bad situation worse from a handling point of view.
Under acelleration though the force of the traction of the wheels will push the lower control arm forward. This puts the radius arm in compression which resists the deflection of the A-arm bushings. There is where the advantage for straight line traction comes from.
So its a trade off. A better solution, ie, one where the A-arm bushings neither deflect or bind under acelleration, braking, or steering, which doesn't sacrifice any clearence is to replace the A-arm bushings with heim joints. NVH (Noice Vibration and Harshness) is increases as well as the fact you have to replace them from time to time, but it is a more complete solution.
You can see in this one that the front mounting point of the radius arms are inboard and upward of the line formed by the chassis mounts of the lower control arm. If you picture the suspension compressing you can see that the spindle side of the control arm and the radius arm are going to try to move though different arcs. This is going to push the spindle rearwards and outwards along the line of the radius arm as the suspension compresses. This causes the bushings to bind or resist movement in a non-linear fashion, adding effective wheel rates in an unpredictable fashion, as well as conflicting instant and roll centers. In a car which is going to understeer at the limit in the first place, that just makes a bad situation worse from a handling point of view.
Under acelleration though the force of the traction of the wheels will push the lower control arm forward. This puts the radius arm in compression which resists the deflection of the A-arm bushings. There is where the advantage for straight line traction comes from.
So its a trade off. A better solution, ie, one where the A-arm bushings neither deflect or bind under acelleration, braking, or steering, which doesn't sacrifice any clearence is to replace the A-arm bushings with heim joints. NVH (Noice Vibration and Harshness) is increases as well as the fact you have to replace them from time to time, but it is a more complete solution.
09-09-2001, 07:40 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (JDM_DOHC_SiR)
u can just hit the stock front x-member in a little with a sledge hammer. that's what i did to get my DC 4-1 to clear.... but seriously... $300+ bucks for something that comes stock on our cars..... that's a waste of money... maybe the caster adjustment is worth that much to u i dunno..... i just dont' see what the big deal about the z10 kit is. maybe if i had a civic or the newer integras i'd be more excited...
09-09-2001, 09:47 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Tr0LL)
I just would like to have the adjustment on the front end .. 
Feels offers a set of adjustable tie rods for 79000 yen and the Z10 member is 490$ish..?? So for the price I'll go with the Z10 unit..stronger and lighter than the factory piece anyways 
Feels offers a set of adjustable tie rods for 79000 yen and the Z10 member is 490$ish..?? So for the price I'll go with the Z10 unit..stronger and lighter than the factory piece anyways
09-10-2001, 02:13 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Tr0LL)
u can just hit the stock front x-member in a little with a sledge hammer. that's what i did to get my DC 4-1 to clear.... but seriously... $300+ bucks for something that comes stock on our cars..... that's a waste of money... maybe the caster adjustment is worth that much to u i dunno..... i just dont' see what the big deal about the z10 kit is. maybe if i had a civic or the newer integras i'd be more excited...
I'm sure the techs at Honda and everywhere else thought that hitting the x-members with a sledgehammer was a great idea too.
09-10-2001, 05:21 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
will it intefere with a cai. the competition engineering taction bar similiar the z10 but it bolts up to the left and right front lower motor mounts. so the brace to the motor mount blocks the bottom of the pipe.
09-10-2001, 06:16 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
HAHAHA funny guy... it's not like hitting it in an inch or so is going to affect anything..
after all they did remove the whole piece and tierods in the newer civics and integras...
some ppl... soo funny..
after all they did remove the whole piece and tierods in the newer civics and integras...
some ppl... soo funny..
09-10-2001, 07:28 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
if u have a DA or the older crx/civics, there is a stock x-member with tierods already.... no point in buying the z10 kit UNLESS u want that adjustment thing that he wanted (and save a little weight)... but seriously, for $500, i would spend my money elsewhere on those cars...
oh.. and yea, if u have those cars, and u have a big header, u HAVE to hit the x-member in with a sledge hammer or cut some of it off, or bend the lip in a little at least.... no other way... unless of course, u like spending $500 for something that would take 20 minutes to do and is FREE.
oh.. and yea, if u have those cars, and u have a big header, u HAVE to hit the x-member in with a sledge hammer or cut some of it off, or bend the lip in a little at least.... no other way... unless of course, u like spending $500 for something that would take 20 minutes to do and is FREE.
09-10-2001, 10:30 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Tr0LL)
oh.. and yea, if u have those cars, and u have a big header, u HAVE to hit the x-member in with a sledge hammer or cut some of it off, or bend the lip in a little at least.... no other way... unless of course, u like spending $500 for something that would take 20 minutes to do and is FREE.
09-11-2001, 08:10 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (BY2KGSR)
it will not interfere with a CAI. the rods are in completely different positions, and we do not use the motor mount tab.
09-11-2001, 08:13 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (AllMotor_2.0L B18C5)
I beg to differ. Our arms are completely different from the competition engineering kit. If you would search the archive the differences have been discussed in the past.
Our kit is designed to keep the suspension functioning properly. The CE kit is designed to bind
Our kit is designed to keep the suspension functioning properly. The CE kit is designed to bind
09-11-2001, 08:16 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Someguy)
I cant give a full response right now as i am in the middle of some fluids homework, but i wish you guys would stop posting mis-information. Its getting really old. Dont post if you dont know what yorue talking about
-geoff
-geoff
09-12-2001, 12:23 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (z10 geoff)
You don't sound like quite a business man. The posts by Someguy discussed the dynamics and parameters enough to make a person believe that your kit does not function as well as possible and binding occurs. Maybe if you care to explain the dynamics of the kit and WHY problems with binding will not occur people will realize what a great product you are trying to sell. No one has posted to prove that someguy is posting mis-information. I'm quite interested to hear more about your product so I can share w/ other honda/acura fans on other boards, but you don't seem confident enough to explain. I'm just tryin to get your point of view on the whole binding problem
-Pre
-Pre
09-13-2001, 08:53 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
The reason our kit does not bind is becuase our suspension arms actually follow the factory suspension arc
The trajectory that the factory arms follow is an arc. The radius arm follows an almost identical arc as the stock suspension. (that is why our radius rods are at such an extreme angle as opposed to the CE arms which are almost straight) The only way to make that arc completely equal is to go through the oil pan, which would necessitate running a dry sump. I think that anyone who is willing to run a dry sump would do it for a lower CG and would lower the engine anyway, once again negating the ability to run a true radius arm setup. Our system is off the tru arc by 0.4 degrees. In all fairness, that is nothing. Also if you are familiar with suspension geometries, follow the axes of the LCA (rear and main) to the axis of the radius rod ont he crossmember... youll see that they intersect.
Want to test my claims? Take the suspension and move it up and down, you will feel no binding. Put on a radius arm. Now move the suspension up and down. Feel any different? No, it doesnt.
Our kit is not merely a bandaid, it is a complete solution. Most enthusiasts are not able to a) make solid bushings (none are available for purchase) b) install solid bushings c) remove stock bushings d) willing to spend the time to do any of this stuff e) able to adjust caster... the list goes on and on. Also they are using extremely high spring rates. The radius rod moves a full 6" without any hint of binding/bushing deformation. Any spring that can compress that much is entirely too soft to be on a fwd race vehicle.
Our kit works for both autocross and drag applications. It does not bind, that is moroso (CE) territory. The kit has been proven on a number of vehicles (we have about 300 out there) and many road racers have had nothign but good comments to say.
If you know of a better overall solution i would love to hear it. Caster adjustment is very important too as a common sigh is left side ~ 2.5 degrees, right side ~1.2 degrees.
Let me know what you guys think. I did not mean to sound harsh or offensive in my previous post but many people post erronous information on a regular basis, without checking the facts.
-geoff
[Modified by z10 geoff, 5:56 AM 9/14/2001]
The trajectory that the factory arms follow is an arc. The radius arm follows an almost identical arc as the stock suspension. (that is why our radius rods are at such an extreme angle as opposed to the CE arms which are almost straight) The only way to make that arc completely equal is to go through the oil pan, which would necessitate running a dry sump. I think that anyone who is willing to run a dry sump would do it for a lower CG and would lower the engine anyway, once again negating the ability to run a true radius arm setup. Our system is off the tru arc by 0.4 degrees. In all fairness, that is nothing. Also if you are familiar with suspension geometries, follow the axes of the LCA (rear and main) to the axis of the radius rod ont he crossmember... youll see that they intersect.
Want to test my claims? Take the suspension and move it up and down, you will feel no binding. Put on a radius arm. Now move the suspension up and down. Feel any different? No, it doesnt.
Our kit is not merely a bandaid, it is a complete solution. Most enthusiasts are not able to a) make solid bushings (none are available for purchase) b) install solid bushings c) remove stock bushings d) willing to spend the time to do any of this stuff e) able to adjust caster... the list goes on and on. Also they are using extremely high spring rates. The radius rod moves a full 6" without any hint of binding/bushing deformation. Any spring that can compress that much is entirely too soft to be on a fwd race vehicle.
Our kit works for both autocross and drag applications. It does not bind, that is moroso (CE) territory. The kit has been proven on a number of vehicles (we have about 300 out there) and many road racers have had nothign but good comments to say.
If you know of a better overall solution i would love to hear it. Caster adjustment is very important too as a common sigh is left side ~ 2.5 degrees, right side ~1.2 degrees.
Let me know what you guys think. I did not mean to sound harsh or offensive in my previous post but many people post erronous information on a regular basis, without checking the facts.
-geoff
[Modified by z10 geoff, 5:56 AM 9/14/2001]
09-14-2001, 12:18 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (z10 geoff)
thanks for the info Geoff, when i have the $$ (and a new job) i think I'm gonna replace all mounts and bushings in my car, and along the way i think i'll look much further into getting you kit, it sounds like you have done a lot of research into you kit. Do you have any timeslips before and after the install??
09-14-2001, 01:22 PM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
Geoff, when you said "The radius rod moves a full 6" without any hint of binding/bushing deformation. Any spring that can compress that much is entirely too soft to be on a fwd race vehicle." could you define too soft? I like the idea of reducing response time and especially enhancing front end grip, but I also do not want to run the same kind of spring rates as a race-only integra. Thanks in advance.
09-15-2001, 09:10 AM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (Prelussion)
for timeslips of some unbiased customers go here:
http://forums.clubsi.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/007804.html
http://forums.clubsi.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000385.html
i personally hit a 1.98 60 on 555Rs and 1.73 on 24" slicks
all street car all turbo
http://forums.clubsi.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/007804.html
http://forums.clubsi.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000385.html
i personally hit a 1.98 60 on 555Rs and 1.73 on 24" slicks
all street car all turbo
09-15-2001, 09:13 AM
#49
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Re: More z10 kit observations (nugget8000)
too soft is considered even softer than your stock spring by ~50 lbs.
6" of travel is a serious amount of movement. There is no reason why any non-offroad vehicle should have that kind of travel. I recommend a 300 lb spring in the rear and a 350 in the front for a decent ride and great handling. On my personal car i have 400s in the rear 500 in the front on my tokickos set at 5 and am really happy with it for 3 years now.
-geoff
6" of travel is a serious amount of movement. There is no reason why any non-offroad vehicle should have that kind of travel. I recommend a 300 lb spring in the rear and a 350 in the front for a decent ride and great handling. On my personal car i have 400s in the rear 500 in the front on my tokickos set at 5 and am really happy with it for 3 years now.
-geoff
09-15-2001, 09:21 AM
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Re: More z10 kit observations (z10 geoff)
I beg to differ. Our arms are completely different from the competition engineering kit. If you would search the archive the differences have been discussed in the past.
Our kit is designed to keep the suspension functioning properly. The CE kit is designed to bind
Our kit is designed to keep the suspension functioning properly. The CE kit is designed to bind
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