ukrkoz

Hello

I was changing timing belt in 91 Civic with DPFI engine.

Now I have a question:

I had TDC set by timing belt cover. Make things interesting, drivebelt pulley has 5 marks on it, one marked red, with 2 on either side of it, and 2 more marks about inch forward of it.
So, in my simplicity, I assumed that the red one is the TDC mark.
Right or wrong?

To my surprise, when I had drivebelt pulley removed, I found that timing belt sproket has another mark on it plus, there's an arrow on the engine block.
WITH RED TDC MARK ALIGNED PERFECTLY, THAT MARK ON THE SPROCKET IS ABOUT 1.5 TOOTH OFF FORWARD, TOWARDS THE FIREWALL.
Haynes is adamant to do it by timing belt cover. OK, then what is that mark on the sprocket and what is that arrow about?

She does fine, but I still can hear that crunchy advanced timing sound. Distributor cap is maxed on retard. Can't retard any more.

??????????????????

~sp33~

Here you go, this might help:

And a picture for reference:

crx22

No the top dead center mark is away from the other marks...your timing is off for sure.

It would be a white mark if the color is still there.

ukrkoz

OK, so we have 2 opposite opinions:
1. your timing is correct
2. your timing is off.

can someone, please, post CLEAR PICTURE OF WHAT THOSE MARKS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE? and which one is the timing one?

this is what i have on my engine:
1. on camshaft sprocket, UP mark, 2 horizontal marks, and a 3rd mark, pointing at about 50 degrees angle towards radiator. and yes, there's a plastic cover or something, below the 3rd mark, with a pointer up. 3rd mark and that pointer ARE NOT aligned with the horizontal marks parallel to the engine block.(i have found reference to the 3rd mark as "SI camshaft mark" and with SI camshaft, horizontal notches are not supposed to be used for TDC setting, but the angled mark.)
2. on drivebelt pulley, there are 2 sets of marks: 3 notches in a cluster, with middle notch red; then, about 3/4 of an inch clockwise, set of 2 notches. NO WHITE MARK.
3. on timing belt sprocket, there's a notch; on engine block, there's a pointer. like i said before, with red mark aligned with timing belt cover and 2 horizontal notches aligned with engine block, that pointer is about 1 1/2 tooth misaligned with the sprocket notch. but!! it looks like that, should i have sprocket mark aligned with pointer, it'll align the 3rd mark on the camshaft sprocket with its pointer.
4. engine starts and runs fine, no signs of bad timing. slight "too advanced timing" noise. red notch(now it's shiny, so i CAN SEE IT) is about an inch clockwise towards the firewall on drivebelt pulley. distributor maxed out on retarding timing.
belt was previously replaced, as it says "made in Germany" on it. timing marks were previously aligned exactly the way i have them now.

btw, are those belts supposed to be that loose? one that was there was loose, i did by the book tensioner adjustment - it's loose same way. of course, Haynes proved itself to be useless in this area.....

basically, counting all the notches, i have 12 marks to figure.....

OK, after further research:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1.../91-6-26-2.jpg

it all goes down to what engine we have - SI or not. Apparently, Honda put marks for both types on same time. VIN and a phone call to dealership should solve it.

mjfubar101

He is right you are off, TDC is the mark off to the side when you have the timing light on it you should see the 3 marks and put it smack in the middle.

ukrkoz

Fellas, please, have mercy. Over to the side which way?

I just called dealership. They keep babbling about white mark, and I do not have it.
Good chance is, drivebelt pully was replaced. As a result, I have this:


my hand drawing on the side shows notches on my pulley and alignment i have done using red mark.

no white mark. 3 notches with red in the middle and then 2 notches over to the firewall side.

also, i draw how i had it aligned, using red mark. dealership says - wooddroff key notch in the cranckshaft should be pointing dead on 12 o'clock. as far as i remember, it was.

i do not have si engine. so, for what it is, i have timing set right, except that the red mark is off under strobe light. off towards the firewall. i can not get it under the timing belt cover mark with distributor, period.

now, for the sake of it, i found reference that says to check timing with AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION IN DRIVE, and i physically can not do it without helper. maybe that will change something. i'll try later tonight, when son comes back from school.

jlicrx

for get the pulley - to get it at TDC, the mark on the timing belt gear on the crankshaft needs to align with the arrow on the oil pump cover - the cam gear marks at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock need to align with the top of the head - i would get the correct crank pulley for it so that ignition timing can be set correctly - the 3 marks close together with red in middle are the ignition timing marks

ukrkoz

well, it's all good.
i spoke with P. at local Greg's Japanese Auto. He told me that the red mark is the one to set TDC to and not to worry about the rest of them (odd) marks.
i took her out for a joy ride for the 1st time - 3 hwys. she does so well that i am not worried about this anymore. steep hills are still a challenge, but, considering tiny motor, automatic, my 260 lbs, and 178000 miles, sounds good to me. she revs into high rpms easy, no smoking.

appreciate everyone's input.

~sp33~

The red ignition mark?

ukrkoz

man was adamant about it. he's doing their electrical stuff, including timing.

jlicrx

he doesn't know what he is doing - find a good Honda mechanic - the red mark is for the ignition timing at 18 degrees Before Top Dead Center, not TDC - using the red mark as TDC will result in the camshaft timing being off by 9 degrees or about one tooth on the belt

ukrkoz

ok, so which one is THE MARK on the damn pulley i have? as there is not a single mark there, except that red one, that sticks out.

i mean, i do not mind tearing it all apart again, now that i know what i'm doing. because it starts looking like i have to align sprocket mark with the pointer on the engine block.

but before i do this, which mark out of five is the mark??

also, once again: HOW SNUG IS THE TIMING BELT SUPPOSED TO BE? as it had a lot of slack in it when i removed the timing belt cover, and has same amount after i did all the tensioner adjustment.

otherwise, car drives very well. won't tell something's wrong with timing. one tooth over should be noticeable, right?

88DXCRX

If you are having to crank the distributer all the way to one side,
Then it is probably safe to say the cam timing is off..

It should be in somewhere in the middle of the range of adjustment
and you can usually tell where it was bolted down before
which is usually "in the ballpark"...

here is a picture of the timing marks:
For TDC you want it on the single mark to the right of the three..



If you can't see a mark,Pull the #1 spark plug and use a screwdriver
to "feel" where the piston is..Rotate the crank back and forth until the piston is at it's highest point..That should be TDC.. If the cam marks are upside down.rotate the crank 360 degrees counterclockwise..

ukrkoz

appreciate picture. except that on mine, there are TWO marks on the right, about 1/8 inch apart.

but that's ok. i have decided about 2 hrs ago, to forget marks, and just set it by screwdriver. which i am almost positive, belt sprocket mark will then align with the engine block mark.

should be easy,as i do not need to remove engine mount and ac compressor anymore to just slip belt one or 2 teeth over.

what i really don't want to happen is to go through the hassle just to find that engine does not start or something. oh, do i miss old time cars - one mark and a pointer with degrees tab next to it. no guesswork.

i am more concerned about that belt being so loose. that's not right..... hands itching to put some manual tension on that roller, before locking bolt in place, with g'ol prybar.

Bunger

Does the book illustrate how to tension the timing belt? If not, I think I can dig up the helm for ya.

24TEN

iTrader: (2)

I just got through reading all of this and from what I gather you're timing is definitely off and your "mechanic" doesn't know what he is doing. The correct marks have been defined for you already but I'll restate in a way that will hopefully make it absolutely and undeniably definitive for you:

FOR THE CRANK PULLEY

The three (3) timing marks are for ignition timing (red mark being ideal). These three marks are ONLY to be used for setting distributor timing. That is it! It has nothing to do with setting TDC. If you are trying to set TDC, do not worry about this group of three (3) marks AT ALL.

The other two (2) marks are for TDC. You align that with the two notches on the lower timing belt cover (if you have only one (1) notch there, you align between those two notches on the timing belt cover...sort of like you would aim a gun sight).

FOR THE CAM GEAR

The third mark, the one you referenced as 50 degrees towards the radiator, is your TDC mark. You align that to the notch on the plastic cover attached to the head that is right behind the cam gear itself. I actually have a picture from my rebuild for you, it should align like this:



After that, THEN you use a timing gun referencing the RED mark on the crank pulley to set it to stock timing. That's it. It's not complicated. If you absolutely want to make sure your crank is set at TDC, pull spark plug number one and stick your dipstick in it (or a suitable long flat head or phillips screw driver) and rotate the crank. Watch the dipstick as it rises and falls. Rotate it and stop when the dipstick reaches it's peak. You'll see that the two marks on the crank pulley will be aligned to the two notches on the lower timing belt cover. Also, if you pull the crank pulley off at that point you'll see that the woodruff key will be at 12 o'clock as well. Then, you check to see if the cam gear mark is aligned appropriately to the notch on the plastic timing cover. If it isn't, your timing is definitely off.

I seriously hope you use the information provided in this thread to your benefit. It sucks to read that your "mechanic" doesn't know what he's doing and ultimately the trust you give to him will lead to a mechanical failure which YOU will have to pay for.

jlicrx

that is correct for the cam gear on the D16A6, however, he has a D15B1 or D15B2 (didn't say which, but it is DPFI) - for the D15B1/B2, the cam gear marks at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock align with the top of the head - forget the third mark at about 7 o'clock

ukrkoz

i really did not want to push it, but the marks described by 24TEN are for SI engine, and I have DX engine, which has timing camshaft marks at 9 and 3 aligned to engine head.

but here's an interesting thing.
I used the RED mark to set TDC, right?

well,
1. I found that cursed white mark. there's so little of white paint, that it simply got burried under dirt. IT IS THE LAST MARK TOWARDS THE FIREWALL, or the one closest to the driver on the 2 notches cluster.
2. so, my timing should be off, right?
let's take a look at some pictures:



that white mark is dead on where it's supposed to be!!! also, you can see the other 3 marks, to the left. i simply marked the red one better, so that i can see it.

i am taking timing belt cover off right now and will work on that tensioner. it ain't right, all i know. should be more tension in the belt.

guys, just for general info. i am not really dumb mechanically. matter of fact, i am very good. i give myself fair credit for being lost amongst 5 marks on the pulley, and six timing marks on cam and belt sprockets, mixed with poorly written manual.

appreciate y'all's help. be well.

24TEN

iTrader: (2)

Looks like you're on the right track "ukrkoz."

jlicrx-the picture and info provided regarding the cam gear alignment was actually based off of my D15B8 (same thing basically as the all other 1.5 motors). With the third mark (the 50 degree one or 7 o'clock one) aligned to the plastic cover notch, the other two at 3 and 9 o'clock is level with the head as you described. If all is done correctly, all three should align appropriately right? That's the way I understood it per the factory service manual and that's what I ended up with on my motor.

ukrkoz

i ain't messing with it anymore. she drives like a champ for age and mileage. i took slack out of timing belt. turned rotors, we took her for several hrs drive everywhere.
starts, goes, does not smoke, we even started passing slower vehicles on the freeway. steep hills are still a challenge, but my son weighs only half my weight, she'll be zipping with him as a driver.
of course, needs head gasket some time soon, but that's later. if i decide to do gasket, i'll drop oil pan and do rings and bearings same time.
so far, she's done and good on my book.

sde780

Why don't you just use the mark on the timing belt sprocket? The thing that the crank pulley slips on, there's a mark on there. Line it up with the arrow on your oil pump. Line the cam gear up, you're good to go.

~sp33~

It may drive ok, but it'll no doubt speed up the wear on your engine.

jlicrx

on the D15B7 and D15B8, when the 2 marks on the cam gear are aligned with the top of the head, the 3rd mark does not align with the pointer on the back of the timing belt cover - the 3rd mark on the cam gear is used for the D16Z6 and when aligned with the pointer on the cover, the 2 marks on the cam gear do not align with the top of the head - the D15Z1 is even different where the 2 marks on the cam gear align with the 2 triangles near the top of the inside cover



on the D15B1, D15B2 and D15B6, the 2 marks on the cam gear align with the top of the head and the 3rd mark doesn't align with the pointer on the inside timing belt cover (diagram on left) - on the D16A6, the 3rd mark at 7 o'clock aligns with the pointer on the inside timing cover and the 2 marks on the head do not align with the top of the head (diagram on right)

24TEN

iTrader: (2)

Hey thanks for clearing that up! Man, now I have doubts about my own timing I guess I'll have to go outside and see what it is set at LOL

As stated above, does that mean that all the cam gears are the same regardless of which D motor is being used?