asdfyellow

Hey guys.
I have a 2001 Honda Civic Lx. 106,648 on the odometer
I took my car in for routine oil change and had transmission serviced.
My car has been making a clunking noise that I thought was coming from the rear since I've owned the car. It happens at lows speeds, like under 25 mph, and when I press the brakes lightly, like when slowing down for lights.

Anyway, I told them about it since I figured they could check it out while my car was on the lift. I researched it before thought maybe it was the stabalizer bar or bushings or just my brakes.

They test drove the car and at first said they could not hear the noise but the write up says they did. When I came to pick up my car, I was told the Lower ball joint boots were both blown as well as my outer tie rod end boots blown. They said that I can't replace just the boots on the ball joints and recommended me to get my front nuckles replaced.

I was quoted:
-Outer tie-rod end replacement $222 +tax
-Front nuckle replacement $1,409 +tax
-Alignment $89

First of all, What is a nuckle? Can't I replace just the lower ball joints?
Also, do these parts normally make the clunking noise when broken? The only other odd noise my car makes is a whine, which I think is the power steering. I feel like this is wrong. I could have sworn the clunking noise is coming from the rear.

theineffable

if it's clunking, check the front lower control arm compliance bushings...it's a well known honda issue.

as for the ball joint in the knuckle, it is replaceable.

300whpej

LAWLZ @ $2000 for work. you can get the ball joints and outer tie rods replaced in 1 day at a local shop for about $5-800, but its worth the money to do it yourself and get the experience if you can. ball joints are around $25, tie rods about $20. so for less than $100 you have all the parts you need. heck if you take the knuckle off and take it into a shop, they can press out your ball joints and wheel bearings and have you out the door for about $100, then you'll know your car is solid for a while.

Johnsen

Yea that quote is ridiculous. I say do some research and do it yourself. As for the whining sound your car makes, probably air in the p/s fluid.

asdfyellow

Yeah. I would loooooove to do it myself but I dont see a 95lb girl putting in these parts. Only the basics. So the clunking noise is most likely the front lower control arm bushings? How did they miss this and quote me with two other things?

B18C5-EH2

It's impossible to diagnose and or confirm the dealership's assessment without seeing/driving the car, but here's some info for you.

The front lower control arm compliance bushings need to be checked. They can be seen here as #12 in this pic:



51391-S5A-024 is the part number, and it fits both sides.

Click HERE to order the parts and see the exploded diagram with all the part numbers and prices.

Labor to replace those bushings usually requires the removal of the entire lower control arm (number 10/11) and pressing the old bushing out, and the new one in on a press. Labor could range from $150.00-$300.00 depending on a shop's labor rate and hours charged.

As far as the ball joints go they CAN be purchased separately! You do not have to replace the entire knuckle as Honda stated.

The part number for the replacement ball joints is 51220-S5A-003, and it can be found from a few different vendors. I prefer Sankei since they make Genuine Honda ball joints and tie rods. A Google search with that part number yields a few different sellers.

The lower ball joints need to also either be pressed out (by taking the entire knuckle off the car and using a press) or driven out with an air hammer, and drive the new ones in with a hammer/block or press them in.

Labor could range again from $100-$250.00 or so depending on shop rates/hours of labor charged.

For a visual reference the knuckle is #1/#2 in the above illustration. Note on Honda's parts guide they do not offer the lower ball joint separately. They'd rather sell you some expensive *** knuckles instead.

Outer tie rods?

Another easy one. Part number is53541-S5A-003 and they are the same for both sides. Just like the part number for the ball joints, a Google search yields different sellers, and again I prefer Sankei because if you buy the tie rods from Honda they are made by Sankei.

Anyways so that clunking noise - WHEN does it occur?

Does it only occur when hitting bumps?

Does it make popping sounds if you sit still and turn the wheel lock to lock?

The 2001-2005 Civics are notorious for having shitty suspensions. The struts themselves don;t last as long as the shocks on older models, and the front strut upper bearings can go bad and make popping sounds when you steer, even sitting still.

#9 in this pic shows the crappy plastic housing/upper bearing piece:



Click HERE to see the exploded pic with part numbers and prices.

As far as the dealership's diagnosis again it's hard to say if they are right.

300whpej

being a female, you know they gouged you on what is bad, and how bad it actually is right? sad thing is a lot of techs/dealers will try and pull a fast one on a female

eviee1973

Boots for the ball joints are available, without having to purchase the ball joint from Honda.

B18C5-EH2

That's a really strong accusation.

If you want to verify that they quoted those prices based on the sex of the customer all you'd have to do is get a guy to call up, say they've got the same year/make model car, and tell them:

"Another shop told me I needed new front knuckles because my ball joints are shot, and they also told me I needed outer tie rods and an alignment - what do you charge to do this?"

If they quote a man a wildly different, lower price, then call back and ask to speak to the service manager, then the general manager, then the owner if possible and tell them exactly what's going on.

I will tell you that quotes can vary depending on the mechanic and service advisor (even at the same dealership!) who writes up the ticket. The prices should be set in stone, but unfortunately they are not always. For instance if the tech tells the service advisor that the labor is more or less than the next guy you can see how the ending price would vary.

Yes they are, as shown in my exploded diagram I posted earlier. I'd be willing to bet that the joints themselves are collapsed and/or worn too though, and not just in need of new boots. You can usually tell if the joints are worn by how flat they look, and also by prying on the LCA to see what kind of movement you get out of them.

honda.lioness

This is backed by studies. For example:

1.
I teach an experimental psychology class and ask our not-brain-dead students to design and run an experiment. One came up with the idea of looking at the effect of gender on car repairs. Tammy disconnected the ground wire for the "check engine light" on her still-under-warrantee Kia so the light was on. She then took the car to 10 different repair shops, and then had her 6'4" macho boyfriend Corey take the car a week or two later to the same shops. Here are the results:
Shop Diagnosis for Tammy w/cost for Corey the Male w/cost
1 alternator $385 wire loose $0
2 O2 sensor &
catalytic converter $320* same diagnosis $135
3 fuel injection $565 wire loose $10
4 transmission $2400 wire loose $0
5 wire loose $0 wire loose** $0
6 water pump $765 water hose $25
7 O2 sensor $283 ?? "return to dealer"
8 head gasket $300 loose wire $0
9 faulty exhaust $1345 loose wire $0
10 bad starter $375 loose wire $0

* the mechanic offered to cut her a deal if she would go out with him. When she said she was married the mechanic said "So? You're still good looking"
** the mechanic said he recognized the car from before (which lead Tammy to increase the time between visits).

These were the same mechanics/service writers. The first was even a female (no honor among the same sex). What Tammy is going to try next is to see if a female with knowledge of auto mechanics will be as vulnerable as a naive one (before she first got her driverÕs license, she had to help her father rebuild an engine). This is probably well known from anecdotal evidence, but here is the same conclusion from a more scientific study.

Peter Gram
Dept. Behavioral Sciences
Pensacola Junior College
Florida
http://cars.cartalk.com/content/read-on/2000/06.23.html

2.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/fem064.htm

3.
On dealers discriminating by gender when selling cars, see http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...1/article.html

B18C5-EH2

First of all that first experiment is absolute 100% garbage. There is absolutely no way in hell you could bring the exact same car with the exact same symptoms/issue to the same shop that only a week before diagnosed it without an employee/mechanic realizing it.

Furthermore if the shop in question was really trying to screw a female over they'd not be so stupid as to correctly identify the problem the second go around once the man brought the vehicle in. The fact that the sleezeball "mechanic" tried to make a pass at the girl "customer" doesn't sound any alarms with you? That's called a complete unprofessional ******* trying to come off as a mechanic - you should try doing your test at a well known, reputable shop.

Edit:

This is about as bad as saying a black man would get quoted more at some craphole "repair shop" run by a well known KKK member. No doubt there would be some discrimination, just as you cannot expect some sexist ******* to treat a female customer with fairness.

Also your experiment was not done in a controlled environment though. In order for any of that data to be trusted you'd have needed to conduct the same exact test at hundreds of car repair shops, including dealerships and well respected independent shops.

Sure you go to a hole in the wall crapshop and you will get hole in the wall service, or lack thereof.

You go to an authorized Honda dealership and they are going to be more wary of trying to "get over on" a woman. They have too many lawsuit threats to worry about to try and screw a customer simply because of her sex.

Also there are plenty of honest, well run independent shops such as the shop I've been at for the past 10 years. The owners of our shop and a husband/wife team of which the WIFE handles the day to day operations much more closely than the man of the team. We absolutely have never, and would never treat a female any differently than a male customer as it pertains to prices quoted, and our diagnostic results. If anything we pride ourselves on better explaining the mechanical side of things to our female customers so that they understand what's going on.

There are a lot of asses running "repair" shops, but there are also plenty of reputable, honest ones too that do not discriminate against people.

B18C5-EH2

Sorry to beat a dead horse with the experiment, but there are some other "oddities" I've noticed. Please clarify a few things if you would please.

The only thing done to make the car have a "problem" was disconnecting a ground wire, correct?

Am I to think that a ground wire of some sort was disconnected, and that 10 different repair shops came up with the most wildly varied suggested repairs as a result?

For instance:

The symptoms of loosening a ground wire have absolutely ZERO to do with a water pump or hose. That would be more along the lines of a coolant leak. Even a mind mush retard would not dig into the cooling system if a ground wire were loose, which would not cause coolant leaks of any kind.

Secondly:

More of those diagnostic results are suspect. Either you guys found the absolute most horrible mechanics in the world, or you're not telling the entire story, or some of the results were simply fabricated to bolster your study.

How does the suggested repair vary from something logical such as an alternator end up as starter, or water pump?

If I am to think that this study is even an ounce credible I'd also like to know EXACTLY WHICH WIRE loosened. Depending on the wire some of the suggested repairs would make zero sense. Some grounds are tied in with a lot of different components though, so that's why I ask. Then again no ground will affect a water pump or "hose" as one shop allegedly listed.

For this study to have made more sense you would have needed to use a much easier, cut and dry problem with the vehicle to diagnose rather than a loose ground,m which can be elusive to even good techs.

Example?

Take a car that is perfectly good running order that has already been checked by a competant mechanic.

Now have "Tammy" take the car to a bunch of brake shops and ask for a break check up. Also have Tammy have the car checked at certified dealerships, local shops with excellent reputations, etc.

Now have "Corey" do the same with a car exactly like, but the THE SAME car (as in a different color, or maybe one year newer/older) and have him do the same.

This is a much more scientific study than yours. You can see the results much more easily in that the shops trying to screw "Tammy" (not literally, or well maybe so?) will suggest unneeded brake repairs, while Corey will get "the brakes look good" if there is some actual sex discrimination going on.

asdfyellow

Thanks for the useful info.
I did go to another place and they were confused on why i would need to replace the nuckle. I'm going to keep checking out other places. As for being a female, I'm not stupid. I'm putting my car up on jack stands this weekend and checking it out for myself. I'm not that helpless.

300whpej

we need more women like you in the world, instead of the ones who only know how to drive and put gas in a car.

also, to b18c5-eh2, the FACT that women are charged and told other problems exist when they dont is true, whether you want to believe it or not. if a mechanic starts rambling off things that need to be done to a woman by herself, most would be trying to interpret german/french/etc and either get it repaired, or go without. im 100x more likely to help a female out than men for this simple fact.

B18C5-EH2

My last reply to this "women and repair charges" discussion:

Let's stop discussing whether or not women in general get told differently, and ultimately get charged different prices generally speaking when this topic is about ONE woman who took her car to ONE dealership for diagnosis.

I already provided a very simple, direct way to confirm/deny that this particular dealership is guilty of predatory practices again her as a woman - have a man call and get quotes for the same work, same car.

If you want to prove it get the dealership info from the OP and call for yourself. I said it was a bold accusation because it is. I dare you to accuse the service writer who wrote her ticket up, and the mechanic who did the diagnosis of being predatory because the customer was a woman. Oh and believe it or not many times at a dealership the mechanic has no f'ing clue if the customer is male or female. Many times the mechanic gets the ticket/car and never once sees the customer.

Until you call that exact dealership and prove your theory I'm tired of seeing this "repair shops screw women" crap in this topic. Too many people already share the "repair shops screw everybody" mentality. Try running a repair shop for 10 years with honesty and integrity, and see how it feels to see blanket generalizations about your profession. I take it personally sometimes because I take pride in my work, and my shop's work. Not all mechanics are out to screw anyone, or any woman.

...and you think that no mechanics and/or shops share you feelings about this?

94EG8

I'll confirm that. I worked briefly as a mechanic for my local Honda dealership. All I got was a work order, sure they had a name on them but you were usually so busy you didn't bother wasting the time to see who owned the vehicle. In any case it really didn't make any difference if it was a man or woman that owned the vehicle anyway, I had no control over pricing, I could only tell the service adviser, it needs this, this and this. Or these will need to be changed in another 15K.

MindBomber

I understand, and can sympathize with the negative stereotypes that haunt the automotive profession; certainly not all mechanics are trying to take advantage, and not all used car dealers sell rebuilds held together with glue. The majority of mechanics are honest, a reputable business men who seek only to provide honest and quality service. Unfortunately that fails to negate the fact that a substantial majority of mechanics do cheat their customers.
I'm paying for my education as an insulator, a profession which has a reputation for cheating customers and employing mainly drunks and drug addicts. Obviously I'm not a drunk, or a drug addict, nor do I cheat my customers, but I deal with the insinuations that almost daily.

Neither you or I fit the stereotypes of our professions, but we are the exceptions. My sister took her car to a local shop about a a squeak coming front her front wheel, and was told it was her CV joint, $500 to fix it; the brake dust cover was rubbing against the rotor. Shortly before my gf and I began seeing each other she had her spark plugs replaced when she took her car in for routine maintenance and was charged $240, she drives a stock ek.

Further, she disconnected the ground wire just to trigger the check engine light not to create a real problem. The majority of the shops recognized it was the ground wire, but used the opportunity to create a larger more profitable repair. The repairs quoted have absolutely nothing to do with an actual diagnosis.

Finally, your right to say this study has zero credibility! If the OP of the study can locate and post the complete paper then the post would have some merit. All we have now is 5 minutes of typing with no actual evidence or citation. (B18C5-EH2, I`m not trying to flame you, I just wanted to give my opinion)

delsolintegra

Maybe try a non-dealer Honda Acura certified shop.
If you're in Central Florida, near Melbourne, Fl. try Intercoastal Auto Service.
772 Sunset Drive, Melbourne 321-610-7946 ask for JP Glenn owner.

JKov240

B18C5-EH2, thanks for "sticking up" for the honest shops that actually DO exist.

I read so much on here about how all of these "mechanics" are crooked........yes, there are people like that, SADLY. But you don't have to take your car to them.

The best way to find a good, REPUTABLE shop is word of mouth.


But to answer one of the OP's questions, if the clunking is coming from the front, then more than likely it's the lower control arm bushings...I'm just waiting for mine to start on my '05 sedan.

Evs-One

Get the ---- outa here. Tom is probably the most respected and honest person on this site. His knowledge and willingness to help others exceeds anything you or your study may bring to light...and yeah, bogus study is bogus.

asdfyellow

I did not see the mechanic at all and the service writer was female. She gave me a computer generated quote. So I think they just click what the mechanic says and there is the price. I'm going to check out my stuff soon so I know what's really going on. Got my Haynes manual!


Thanks for giving me an alternative. I live in Lake County, in Eustis. So this is too far for me. I have yet to find a decent mechanic so if anyone knows anything that may be closer, it would be awesome.

I usually have my family work on my car but now they say my car is "too new" for them to touch anymore and they don't want to mess anything up.

MindBomber

I think you missed my point..

I didn't want to criticize Tom, I just wanted to give my opinion on the issue. No doubt, Tom's a totally legit good honest mechanic who's helped many members out. I meant to say, not all mechanics are trustworthy so if something doesn't sound right get a second opinion.

I apologize if I accidentally offended.

02_d17a1_dx

Just be sure that if your upper strut bearing goes bad to replace them with the 02-05 bearings. The 01 has the crappy plastic ones and the 02-05 are metal and more reliable. Ive replaced my ball joints, got duralast ones from autozone and rented their ball joint press, did them in a day when replacing my cv axles. I also replaced one of my compliance bushings that day since i had a shop press. If you need a new compliance bushing and you can take your control arm out you can always just buy the $10 bushing at autozone and take it to any shop and they shouldnt charge you much at all to press the new one in.

Speaking of compliance bushings, i personally dont see a difference between the Honda bushings and autozone ones, the only difference would be if you got some nice Energy Suspension ones. My passenger side bushing has gone bad twice, the factory was bad when i bought it at 122k, replaced it with a honda one at 125k, it went bad at 145k, replaced it with the autozone one and its still fine at 155k. The drivers side one is still fine and its the factory one.

As for the noise, its probably not coming from the rear, you dont have a rear sway bar and its much more likely the noise comes from the front. Definitely check all your bolts, and use the torque specs in the haynes manual you got, i use it all the time. 4/10 times suspension noises (for me) have been a loose bolt or bracket.

bentaylor2010

This hasnt got alot to do with this but i was wondering if you could help as i cannot find how to post a new thread.

Had ball joint changed directly because of my MOT as it had failed, now a few weeks later when driving very slowly i can hear a clicking from the front left wheel where it had been changed. When i slow down it gets worse, until I come to a complete stop and obviously then the noise stops. I dont think it is a drive shaft as on full lock there is no sort of clicking noise, just when I am slowing down, maybe 10mph down to stop. Could this be a bearing problem? any help would be appreciated.thankyou

Car type - K20 Civic Type R 2004

ourbloodykisses

are you guys seriously debating this?