THE best place to oil turbo from?
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (2000_Civic_Si)
the vtec spot is for the vtec! ya know what... i have a head downstairs... im gonna go see how exactly it works... ill be back with pictures later
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (2000_Civic_Si)
OT: But how many people have a restrictor installed in their oil line coming off the sender to the turbo?? I want to run one so I don't blow oil seals in my turbo, but I don't really know where to get the restrictors.
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (HXMan)
if you get the oil from the vtec location...(which was previously done on my car) you will only get oil to the turbo after vtec engages.
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (ALLMOTORDC2)
if you get the oil from the vtec location...(which was previously done on my car) you will only get oil to the turbo after vtec engages.
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (FBP Ex-T)
ok... here's the deal....
exhibit a
vtec selonoid with brake cleaner in the chamber in which oil first goes in... see as it does not get into the other chambers... (the cleaner is in the second from the right chamber and isnt going into the second from the left)
here is the selenoid ligned up with the head... notice that the oil enters the selenoid chamber second from the bottom (this is where the screen (filter) goes) then it exits through the chamber second from the top... from there it goes in to the rockers to lock up the vtec when it is engaged
here u can see the passages the oil takes... the passage coming from the left going TO the selenoid and then the hole that goes out of the selenoid to the rockers... which also has a path going to the oil location in question for the turbo to the right
and here is why some turbos survive with the oil coming from this location... u cant see it that well... see in the second chamber from the top (the outlet from the vtec selenoid) on the outer edge in about the middle... there is a little hole there... just a tiny pinhole... oil pressure comes through here at all times... so there IS some oil coming through but not enough for the turbo imo...
i looked up the selenoid in the manual... as a diagnostic check on the selenoind for problems... it says to plug up an oil pressure guage to the location in which some people tend to put their oil feeds for their turbo's from... at idle... it says if it is below 7psi... to have it checked out... meaning the pressure coming out of that location at idle is pretty damn low! then it says for another test... rev it up to 5000 rpm to activate the vtec and if ur pressure is lower than 60psi... basically u got a problem...
so there ya go folks... the proof!
exhibit a
vtec selonoid with brake cleaner in the chamber in which oil first goes in... see as it does not get into the other chambers... (the cleaner is in the second from the right chamber and isnt going into the second from the left)
here is the selenoid ligned up with the head... notice that the oil enters the selenoid chamber second from the bottom (this is where the screen (filter) goes) then it exits through the chamber second from the top... from there it goes in to the rockers to lock up the vtec when it is engaged
here u can see the passages the oil takes... the passage coming from the left going TO the selenoid and then the hole that goes out of the selenoid to the rockers... which also has a path going to the oil location in question for the turbo to the right
and here is why some turbos survive with the oil coming from this location... u cant see it that well... see in the second chamber from the top (the outlet from the vtec selenoid) on the outer edge in about the middle... there is a little hole there... just a tiny pinhole... oil pressure comes through here at all times... so there IS some oil coming through but not enough for the turbo imo...
i looked up the selenoid in the manual... as a diagnostic check on the selenoind for problems... it says to plug up an oil pressure guage to the location in which some people tend to put their oil feeds for their turbo's from... at idle... it says if it is below 7psi... to have it checked out... meaning the pressure coming out of that location at idle is pretty damn low! then it says for another test... rev it up to 5000 rpm to activate the vtec and if ur pressure is lower than 60psi... basically u got a problem...
so there ya go folks... the proof!
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (Tom)
Ok, so when VTEC activates the second chamber from the top gets pressurized and the oil flows into the rockers, and locks them.
The pin hole which allows oil to enter when vtec is not engaged allows for some lubrication of the system I assume.
The pin hole could also be thought of as a restrictor. The VTEC rockers need a certain oil pressure to work. What if the pinhole oil entry was enlarged enough to allow about 15psi at idle in the second chamber from the top? That would be sufficient to oil the turbo at idle, and as rpms rise, system pressure rises, and the under load requirement PSI the turbo needs could be taken care of as well.
Care would have to be taken to avoid making the hole too big, and letting enough pressure thru to activate the vtec mechanism.
Here is a quote from Maximum Boost by Corky Bell on the flow and pressure requirements for virtually all turbos.
Idle pressure(hot engine); Minimum of 5 PSI. Minimum flow rate: .1 Gal/Min.
Maximum Load; Minimum of 25 PSI. Minimum Flow rate of .5 Gal/Min.
These numbers are not high, and it may be possible with enlarging the hole in the chamber to supply the turbo with enough oil at all operational levels. VTEC oil pressure will still be too high though.
Mr. Bell also states oil pressure to the turbo should not exceed 65-70 PSI.
[Modified by HXMan, 2:01 PM 2/21/2002]
The pin hole which allows oil to enter when vtec is not engaged allows for some lubrication of the system I assume.
The pin hole could also be thought of as a restrictor. The VTEC rockers need a certain oil pressure to work. What if the pinhole oil entry was enlarged enough to allow about 15psi at idle in the second chamber from the top? That would be sufficient to oil the turbo at idle, and as rpms rise, system pressure rises, and the under load requirement PSI the turbo needs could be taken care of as well.
Care would have to be taken to avoid making the hole too big, and letting enough pressure thru to activate the vtec mechanism.
Here is a quote from Maximum Boost by Corky Bell on the flow and pressure requirements for virtually all turbos.
Idle pressure(hot engine); Minimum of 5 PSI. Minimum flow rate: .1 Gal/Min.
Maximum Load; Minimum of 25 PSI. Minimum Flow rate of .5 Gal/Min.
These numbers are not high, and it may be possible with enlarging the hole in the chamber to supply the turbo with enough oil at all operational levels. VTEC oil pressure will still be too high though.
Mr. Bell also states oil pressure to the turbo should not exceed 65-70 PSI.
[Modified by HXMan, 2:01 PM 2/21/2002]
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (Giuseppe)
say you play with that pinhole and then your VTEC doesnt
engage because of oil pressure issues...
then you'll kick yourself.!! ...
engage because of oil pressure issues...
then you'll kick yourself.!! ...
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (FBP Ex-T)
if you get the oil from the vtec location...(which was previously done on my car) you will only get oil to the turbo after vtec engages.
ouch...what happend? did u have to rebuil it??
ouch...what happend? did u have to rebuil it??
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (Tom)
check out SEFI8LOxCivic's post in this thread:
453 hp integra
as he already mentions, on a vtec car that utilizes the factory computer (i.e. no standalone), vtec only activates under rpm AND load. the helms clearly states that this test isn't performed under load (which makes sense unless honda expects the technician to hold onto the radiator support while the car is in motion at 5k rpms ). this means that as rpm increases, so does oil pressure, regardless of whether vtec is activated.
another benefit of running the oilfeed at this location IMO, is that by this time, the oil has already passed through the factory oil filter. follow the oil flow from the oilpump, & notice how the oil pressure switch is located before the oil filter, meaning that an oil feed tapped from this location is unfiltered.
453 hp integra
as he already mentions, on a vtec car that utilizes the factory computer (i.e. no standalone), vtec only activates under rpm AND load. the helms clearly states that this test isn't performed under load (which makes sense unless honda expects the technician to hold onto the radiator support while the car is in motion at 5k rpms ). this means that as rpm increases, so does oil pressure, regardless of whether vtec is activated.
another benefit of running the oilfeed at this location IMO, is that by this time, the oil has already passed through the factory oil filter. follow the oil flow from the oilpump, & notice how the oil pressure switch is located before the oil filter, meaning that an oil feed tapped from this location is unfiltered.
#14
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (qwkteg125)
so you think the oil that has already run through the engine before getting to the VTEC spool valve test psi port is filtered? I just wrote about this same topic in a different post! Until VTEC activates very little oil psi is available. A turbine spinning at 40~60k rpm w/o proper oil is asking for broken parts. This port is probably OK for cars that will spend ALL of their time in VTEC but on a true daily driven street car this will serious shorten the life of the bearings since most of our turbos spool 1k~2krpm before VTEC activates.
Here's a better poll! How many of you have FULL boost before life in the VTEC range begins? I know I do so I also want a properly lubricated center housing before and during VTECness!
I use a restrictor on my turbo and I can get some more if you guys need them!
Here's a better poll! How many of you have FULL boost before life in the VTEC range begins? I know I do so I also want a properly lubricated center housing before and during VTECness!
I use a restrictor on my turbo and I can get some more if you guys need them!
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (drealgsr)
yes, i do believe the vtec solenoid receives filtered oil. it comes from the port on the block after the filter, then goes up through the head (from the port that everyone blocks up in an ls-vtec setup).
i dunno, maybe something else was wrong with your car or your gauge which caused an improper oil pressure reading, because the helm's does state that there should be at least 57psi of oil pressure available at the vtec test port location at 5k rpms. that is regardless of whether vtec is activated or not (because like i just said, vtec can onlt activate under rpm AND load). if not, then something is wrong & you should troubleshoot.
from the helms:
read the items that i highlighted with a red box.
and to answer your other question in your other post, i run my oil feed at this location without problems, as does the afformentioned SEFI8LOxCivic (he states that he has run his feed from there for 4 years without incident), Strng1dah did, before he sold his car, & that's just on this board without using the search function. also, i personally know a few other people running the feed from this location who do not post here.
sorry you had a problem running your feed from this location, but i'm sure there are other's that have had problems running the feed from the oil pressure switch as well.
[Modified by qwkteg125, 4:39 PM 2/21/2002]
i dunno, maybe something else was wrong with your car or your gauge which caused an improper oil pressure reading, because the helm's does state that there should be at least 57psi of oil pressure available at the vtec test port location at 5k rpms. that is regardless of whether vtec is activated or not (because like i just said, vtec can onlt activate under rpm AND load). if not, then something is wrong & you should troubleshoot.
from the helms:
read the items that i highlighted with a red box.
and to answer your other question in your other post, i run my oil feed at this location without problems, as does the afformentioned SEFI8LOxCivic (he states that he has run his feed from there for 4 years without incident), Strng1dah did, before he sold his car, & that's just on this board without using the search function. also, i personally know a few other people running the feed from this location who do not post here.
sorry you had a problem running your feed from this location, but i'm sure there are other's that have had problems running the feed from the oil pressure switch as well.
[Modified by qwkteg125, 4:39 PM 2/21/2002]
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (qwkteg125)
When I owned my CRX SiR I used that port as the loaction for my Oil PSI gauge. You will get a pressure reading but you will not get full psi until VTEC activates. By the time VTEC engages the turbo is already spinning at 40~60k rpm. That's a disater waiting to happen!!
just look at the pictures i took... doesnt look like enough oil is going to be going through that pinsize hole for ur turbo until vtec hits...
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (Tom)
Check HXman's post on what corky bell has to say... you don't need mad crazy pressure for your turbo, in fact high pressure is the number one cause for oil seal failure. I used to daily drive my car 100 miles a day, and my turbo never failed. I did two seasons of drag racing boosting an excess of 24 psi on my turbo, and at all times my oil feed was from that spot. This isn't some isolated phenomenon either, I know of so many people that run their feed from this spot, and who have never had to replace their turbo. We're not talking some newbie kats that just had their stuff for 6 months either. We are talking about YEARS of operation. If you guys think that spot somehow makes you're setup smarter or more reliable... well that's you're perogative, but REAL world, not hypothetical rhetoric tells me otherwise.
I just think its funny especially in the other post about the 459 hp integra, that you guys criticize his setup when he's obviously doing something right, and would run on 95% of the cars on this board. REALITY CHECK
I just think its funny especially in the other post about the 459 hp integra, that you guys criticize his setup when he's obviously doing something right, and would run on 95% of the cars on this board. REALITY CHECK
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (D-SPEED)
dont get it from the VTEC spot. I had it there for a while. trust me on this one.
edit: Let me give a reason. I ran it like that for a while with no problems. If my oil level got even slightly low, there wouldnt be enough oil pressure for it to switch cams. I would recommend just tapping it at the sending unit as most do.
[Modified by Strng1dah, 6:56 PM 2/21/2002]
edit: Let me give a reason. I ran it like that for a while with no problems. If my oil level got even slightly low, there wouldnt be enough oil pressure for it to switch cams. I would recommend just tapping it at the sending unit as most do.
[Modified by Strng1dah, 6:56 PM 2/21/2002]
#20
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (Strng1dah)
Just to set you straight.. My source for the Oil PSI and turbo feed line are on the APP oil cooler sandwich block. I only used the VTEC spot for 1 day because I installed an Omori oil cooler kit that had ports for oil temp and psi. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my engine. Instead of posting what you read and think please post some definitive oil psi numbers that are gathered from the VTEC spool valve maintenance port.
If the oil runs through the engine and head before going to the turbo it is no longer filtered!! Am I right or wrong?
If the oil runs through the engine and head before going to the turbo it is no longer filtered!! Am I right or wrong?
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (drealgsr)
If the oil runs through the engine and head before going to the turbo it is no longer filtered!! Am I right or wrong?
What's undeniably unfiltered is pumping oil off the sending unit into the turbo like most people do. now that's unfiltered.
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (drealgsr)
Instead of posting what you read and think please post some definitive oil psi numbers that are gathered from the VTEC spool valve maintenance port.
I may look into hooking up an oil pressure guage to the VTEC test port and do some of my own testing. I would like to see if it is viable to feed the turbo from this port. I may also look into drilling out the pinhole we have been talking about to allow more oil flow to the turbo.
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (HXMan)
The restrictor is like $8 or $9.
If the oil at the VTEC solenoid is so clean why is there an extra screen inside of the solenoid? This is what I said.. once the oil passes through the block and head it is no longer clean. What's my point? The dirty oil/clean oil argument is moot!
If the oil at the VTEC solenoid is so clean why is there an extra screen inside of the solenoid? This is what I said.. once the oil passes through the block and head it is no longer clean. What's my point? The dirty oil/clean oil argument is moot!
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (D-SPEED)
bingo! thats the spot im going to use, you can see it in those pics. i would use the spot in back of the block buy its not filtered at hat point, my main concern is the high oil psi nmbers though. i think hks sells a restrictor but i dont know he part #.
what about the plugged hole on the head, under the distributor ?
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Re: THE best place to oil turbo from? (lucas569)
bingo! thats the spot im going to use, you can see it in those pics. i would use the spot in back of the block buy its not filtered at hat point, my main concern is the high oil psi nmbers though. i think hks sells a restrictor but i dont know he part #. what about the plugged hole on the head, under the distributor ?