2000_Civic_Si

Which would you use. I think this will help alot of people on the internet right now.

bigTom

the vtec spot is for the vtec! ya know what... i have a head downstairs... im gonna go see how exactly it works... ill be back with pictures later

HXMan

OT: But how many people have a restrictor installed in their oil line coming off the sender to the turbo?? I want to run one so I don't blow oil seals in my turbo, but I don't really know where to get the restrictors.

threatcon13

if you get the oil from the vtec location...(which was previously done on my car) you will only get oil to the turbo after vtec engages.

FBP Ex-T

ouch...what happend? did u have to rebuil it??

Giuseppe

dammit there must be a consensus on this topic...!!!!
where is the best place...???

i want the TRUTH.!!!!

bigTom

ok... here's the deal....
exhibit a
vtec selonoid with brake cleaner in the chamber in which oil first goes in... see as it does not get into the other chambers... (the cleaner is in the second from the right chamber and isnt going into the second from the left)

here is the selenoid ligned up with the head... notice that the oil enters the selenoid chamber second from the bottom (this is where the screen (filter) goes) then it exits through the chamber second from the top... from there it goes in to the rockers to lock up the vtec when it is engaged

here u can see the passages the oil takes... the passage coming from the left going TO the selenoid and then the hole that goes out of the selenoid to the rockers... which also has a path going to the oil location in question for the turbo to the right

and here is why some turbos survive with the oil coming from this location... u cant see it that well... see in the second chamber from the top (the outlet from the vtec selenoid) on the outer edge in about the middle... there is a little hole there... just a tiny pinhole... oil pressure comes through here at all times... so there IS some oil coming through but not enough for the turbo imo...


i looked up the selenoid in the manual... as a diagnostic check on the selenoind for problems... it says to plug up an oil pressure guage to the location in which some people tend to put their oil feeds for their turbo's from... at idle... it says if it is below 7psi... to have it checked out... meaning the pressure coming out of that location at idle is pretty damn low! then it says for another test... rev it up to 5000 rpm to activate the vtec and if ur pressure is lower than 60psi... basically u got a problem...

so there ya go folks... the proof!

HXMan

Ok, so when VTEC activates the second chamber from the top gets pressurized and the oil flows into the rockers, and locks them.

The pin hole which allows oil to enter when vtec is not engaged allows for some lubrication of the system I assume.

The pin hole could also be thought of as a restrictor. The VTEC rockers need a certain oil pressure to work. What if the pinhole oil entry was enlarged enough to allow about 15psi at idle in the second chamber from the top? That would be sufficient to oil the turbo at idle, and as rpms rise, system pressure rises, and the under load requirement PSI the turbo needs could be taken care of as well.

Care would have to be taken to avoid making the hole too big, and letting enough pressure thru to activate the vtec mechanism.

Here is a quote from Maximum Boost by Corky Bell on the flow and pressure requirements for virtually all turbos.

Idle pressure(hot engine); Minimum of 5 PSI. Minimum flow rate: .1 Gal/Min.

Maximum Load; Minimum of 25 PSI. Minimum Flow rate of .5 Gal/Min.

These numbers are not high, and it may be possible with enlarging the hole in the chamber to supply the turbo with enough oil at all operational levels. VTEC oil pressure will still be too high though.

Mr. Bell also states oil pressure to the turbo should not exceed 65-70 PSI.





[Modified by HXMan, 2:01 PM 2/21/2002]

Giuseppe

say you play with that pinhole and then your VTEC doesnt
engage because of oil pressure issues...
then you'll kick yourself.!! ...

Phantom

awesome post, thanks for taking the time here

HXMan

I don't think that will be a concern, as long as the hole is not too large.

threatcon13

not because of that..because the wastegate line was hooked up wrong...but now something else went wrong so I just decided to scrap the current set up and get in a 2.1 w/ type R head.

qwkteg125

check out SEFI8LOxCivic's post in this thread:

453 hp integra

as he already mentions, on a vtec car that utilizes the factory computer (i.e. no standalone), vtec only activates under rpm AND load. the helms clearly states that this test isn't performed under load (which makes sense unless honda expects the technician to hold onto the radiator support while the car is in motion at 5k rpms ). this means that as rpm increases, so does oil pressure, regardless of whether vtec is activated.

another benefit of running the oilfeed at this location IMO, is that by this time, the oil has already passed through the factory oil filter. follow the oil flow from the oilpump, & notice how the oil pressure switch is located before the oil filter, meaning that an oil feed tapped from this location is unfiltered.

Dee

so you think the oil that has already run through the engine before getting to the VTEC spool valve test psi port is filtered? I just wrote about this same topic in a different post! Until VTEC activates very little oil psi is available. A turbine spinning at 40~60k rpm w/o proper oil is asking for broken parts. This port is probably OK for cars that will spend ALL of their time in VTEC but on a true daily driven street car this will serious shorten the life of the bearings since most of our turbos spool 1k~2krpm before VTEC activates.

Here's a better poll! How many of you have FULL boost before life in the VTEC range begins? I know I do so I also want a properly lubricated center housing before and during VTECness!

I use a restrictor on my turbo and I can get some more if you guys need them!

qwkteg125

yes, i do believe the vtec solenoid receives filtered oil. it comes from the port on the block after the filter, then goes up through the head (from the port that everyone blocks up in an ls-vtec setup).

i dunno, maybe something else was wrong with your car or your gauge which caused an improper oil pressure reading, because the helm's does state that there should be at least 57psi of oil pressure available at the vtec test port location at 5k rpms. that is regardless of whether vtec is activated or not (because like i just said, vtec can onlt activate under rpm AND load). if not, then something is wrong & you should troubleshoot.

from the helms:

read the items that i highlighted with a red box.

and to answer your other question in your other post, i run my oil feed at this location without problems, as does the afformentioned SEFI8LOxCivic (he states that he has run his feed from there for 4 years without incident), Strng1dah did, before he sold his car, & that's just on this board without using the search function. also, i personally know a few other people running the feed from this location who do not post here.

sorry you had a problem running your feed from this location, but i'm sure there are other's that have had problems running the feed from the oil pressure switch as well.


[Modified by qwkteg125, 4:39 PM 2/21/2002]

bigTom

this is from drealgsr from another thread...... go ahead and use that spot... but dont come running here if u blow ur turbo... all ill say is i told u so... dont be lazy and install it in the back of the block... it works... and i have heard many stories of people blowing up turbos because of the oil feed coming from this port...

just look at the pictures i took... doesnt look like enough oil is going to be going through that pinsize hole for ur turbo until vtec hits...

SEFIxCivic

Check HXman's post on what corky bell has to say... you don't need mad crazy pressure for your turbo, in fact high pressure is the number one cause for oil seal failure. I used to daily drive my car 100 miles a day, and my turbo never failed. I did two seasons of drag racing boosting an excess of 24 psi on my turbo, and at all times my oil feed was from that spot. This isn't some isolated phenomenon either, I know of so many people that run their feed from this spot, and who have never had to replace their turbo. We're not talking some newbie kats that just had their stuff for 6 months either. We are talking about YEARS of operation. If you guys think that spot somehow makes you're setup smarter or more reliable... well that's you're perogative, but REAL world, not hypothetical rhetoric tells me otherwise.

I just think its funny especially in the other post about the 459 hp integra, that you guys criticize his setup when he's obviously doing something right, and would run on 95% of the cars on this board. REALITY CHECK

D-SPEED

what about the plugged hole on the head, under the distributor ?

chri5

dont get it from the VTEC spot. I had it there for a while. trust me on this one.

edit: Let me give a reason. I ran it like that for a while with no problems. If my oil level got even slightly low, there wouldnt be enough oil pressure for it to switch cams. I would recommend just tapping it at the sending unit as most do.


[Modified by Strng1dah, 6:56 PM 2/21/2002]

Dee

Just to set you straight.. My source for the Oil PSI and turbo feed line are on the APP oil cooler sandwich block. I only used the VTEC spot for 1 day because I installed an Omori oil cooler kit that had ports for oil temp and psi. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my engine. Instead of posting what you read and think please post some definitive oil psi numbers that are gathered from the VTEC spool valve maintenance port.

If the oil runs through the engine and head before going to the turbo it is no longer filtered!! Am I right or wrong?

SEFIxCivic

I think you're wrong. That's like saying the head doesn't get clean oil because it must first run thru the block, or saying that the vtec pins are locked, and the vtec rocker arms are lubricated, by an unclean source. What pray tell is making the oil dirty when its pumped thru the oil galleys?

What's undeniably unfiltered is pumping oil off the sending unit into the turbo like most people do. now that's unfiltered.

HXMan

Did you say you can get an oil restrictor? How much?

I may look into hooking up an oil pressure guage to the VTEC test port and do some of my own testing. I would like to see if it is viable to feed the turbo from this port. I may also look into drilling out the pinhole we have been talking about to allow more oil flow to the turbo.

Dee

The restrictor is like $8 or $9.

If the oil at the VTEC solenoid is so clean why is there an extra screen inside of the solenoid? This is what I said.. once the oil passes through the block and head it is no longer clean. What's my point? The dirty oil/clean oil argument is moot!

lucas569

bingo! thats the spot im going to use, you can see it in those pics. i would use the spot in back of the block buy its not filtered at hat point, my main concern is the high oil psi nmbers though. i think hks sells a restrictor but i dont know he part #.

D-SPEED

this weekend I am going to plug my greddy oil pressure gauge to that spot and see what comes out.