i know a company called ikeya makes them, but they've got a pretty steep price tag, and they aren;t even selling them for hondas yet, still. I've tried looking into the design, buti can;t come up with anything from it. I've got an h22 in my teg so its got a cable shifter, which would be easier to fab up one of these for than the rod shiftlinkage. Just curious if anyone has tried making one or if there are any other companies that have gotten their stuff together and made one. I saw one in a dsm not to long ago in a mag, and they utilize the same shifter cables liek the lude, but i can;t find anyone else besides ikeya that makes these. (hint hint good thing for someone to figure out how to make and sell for half the price)

 

just to be clear i'm talking about the shifter assemly itself only, nothing with the gear box, and the clutch would still have to be used

 

Good luck making one. They are pretty complicated. Here is a photo of the ikeya piece that I took at the '01 tokyo autosalon.



Edit :unknown little girl testing it out.

 

just take some detailed pics of the unit then try to replicate it, Trial and Error

 

in my opinion it would be easier to do it electonically or electo-pnuematically then purely mechanical. You could also build in some neat features.

 

I may just put this in my list of "cool **** to build"

I was thinking about replicating the SMG transmission and I may just take a stab at it soon.

 

i've thought about using solenoids, but it actually seems more complicated that way because of the slight movement that is required everyother gear on the left cable. it'd be hard to make an electronic device that would know when to trigger it (left cable is only moved in the 2>3 and 4>5 shifts or N>1 and N>R) that seems hella complex to do electronically ha. I've got a pretty good idea of how to do a mechanical system. like using the shift lever to control 2 seperate gears (one for up shifts, one for down shifts),these gears being connected to a rod that drive 2 oddly shaped pieces that trigger the movement in the cables (but i can't figure out how the oddly shaped pieces should be connected to the cables) and of coarse there are one way bearings and such in there, kinda hard to really explain it or draw it on here cause all i have is paint haha. I'll mess with it a little more this weekend when i don;t have school or work. maybe i'll figure it out and build a model

 

Actually if i could mechanically hook up the solenoids the electrical part is a no brainer.

Doesn't it rotate the shift rod when you go from 1-3-5 and when you put it in gear it either pulls out or pushes in the shift rod?

ExampleFrom driver's point of view)
1st: shift rod rotates counter clockwise and pulls out
2nd: shift rod doesn't rotate, just pushes all the way in
3rd: shift rod pulls out half way rotates clockwise 1 gate and pulls out the rest of the way


you get the idea. This could be done with 2-3 solenoids or aircylinders if i've got my theory's down.

 

(OT) a better and potentially cheaper idea. lol. next time you see one at a show, wait until no one is looking and pull a quick ****** and grab.

and a quick pointer. run like a ****

but seriously. i think the hardest part would be hooking up the solenoids.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stizzit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually if i could mechanically hook up the solenoids the electrical part is a no brainer.

Doesn't it rotate the shift rod when you go from 1-3-5 and when you put it in gear it either pulls out or pushes in the shift rod?

ExampleFrom driver's point of view)
1st: shift rod rotates counter clockwise and pulls out
2nd: shift rod doesn't rotate, just pushes all the way in
3rd: shift rod pulls out half way rotates clockwise 1 gate and pulls out the rest of the way


you get the idea. This could be done with 2-3 solenoids or aircylinders if i've got my theory's down.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i got it a little easier than the rod shifter, I was mentioning the cables because i've got an h22, you've got the right idea on the shift rod tho. tell you what, you make them for d/b series, i'll make them for f/h possibly k series ha. thats if when i get this down pat. If anyone has detailed pics please help out, the ones from earlier aren;t working cause of imagestation. I've got a few pics from importfan.com which are pretty helpful, but i need to see the middle and front of the shifter.

oohh i just thought, the solenoids are a good idea, but what abotu when one fails, that'd suck ha, i think i'm goign to try to keep it strictly mechanical except a gear indicator

 

i'll have one on the clutch too (not sure how to do it with a hydro clutch) and i'd have to convert the throttle to drive by wire.....

Then I could create my HSMG (Honda sequential manual gearbox) muhahahah.....

can you imagine just tapping paddles on your steering wheel? It'd definatly be siiiiiiick.

maybe tommorow i'll clear out some of the cob webs under my car and get at it! :-D

anyone got an extra b-series shift linkage?

 

haha atta boy. I just went out and got lots of measurements, I think i'm goign to try to make these

oh as for your soleniod on the clutch, if you get up under the dash, you can put the soleniod up closer to the clutch master cylinder = less throw, prly be a pretty rough engaugement though especally on inital take offs haa, i say try it, as long as you don;t butcher the parts, you can always go back to stock, its not that outlandish of an idea. Making a whole tranny on the other hand...nah

why convert to drive by wire? tsx motorswap???? ha

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stizzit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'll have one on the clutch too (not sure how to do it with a hydro clutch) and i'd have to convert the throttle to drive by wire.....

Then I could create my HSMG (Honda sequential manual gearbox) muhahahah.....

can you imagine just tapping paddles on your steering wheel? It'd definatly be siiiiiiick.

maybe tommorow i'll clear out some of the cob webs under my car and get at it! :-D

anyone got an extra b-series shift linkage?

I give you props for even attempting to do a honda SMG

Things you will need to consider

Making a complete control module that is going to take inputs from the engine ecu etc.

Getting it to work properly (took BMW quite a while and they still had many many warranty issues with it)

As i said props for even thinking of attempting it but it wont be anywhere enar easy BMW's is so ridiculously complex it was a pain to trouble shoot. (used to be a certified BMW tech btw)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I don't think solenoids will work well. There's a fair amount of force that's needed and some decent travel, two contradictions when it comes to solenoids. Yes a big-*** solenoid could be used and mechanically amplified with linkages, but that's going to end up being a lot of power and heat. I also don't think the instantaneous motion of a solenoid is what's needed. Plus there's the issue of coming to a stop, when you want the clutch in all the time, so it can't be replaced completely.

Another issue is that since we only have 12V to play with, it's going to take some dang thick wire (read: big solenoids) to create the mechanical force needed. Oh, and the resistance of copper goes up with temperature so the solenoids get weaker the hotter they get, meaning the shifter action will get weaker as it is used. This applies especially to replacing the clutch pedal with a solenoid as it takes a lot of force... Unfortunately a SMG isn't that great unless the clutch is replaced so we'd have to come up with something...

I've been thinking about designing a SMG for my mid-engine Mini, and believe an all-mechanical approach is best. I'm a HW/SW engineer and know all about how a PIC-based controller could run it, but it's just too complex. I think some gears, drums, and ratchets woud be best.

I don't want to rain on the parade though; I think it would really cool if we could come up with a design. Heck if we come up with something cool there's probably a lot of potential if it can be made cheaply enough.

 

the only thing i'm stuck on is connecting the shifter cables to my irregularly shapped gears. hhhmmmmm

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think solenoids will work well. There's a fair amount of force that's needed and some decent travel, two contradictions when it comes to solenoids. Yes a big-*** solenoid could be used and mechanically amplified with linkages, but that's going to end up being a lot of power and heat. I also don't think the instantaneous motion of a solenoid is what's needed. Plus there's the issue of coming to a stop, when you want the clutch in all the time, so it can't be replaced completely.

Another issue is that since we only have 12V to play with, it's going to take some dang thick wire (read: big solenoids) to create the mechanical force needed. Oh, and the resistance of copper goes up with temperature so the solenoids get weaker the hotter they get, meaning the shifter action will get weaker as it is used. This applies especially to replacing the clutch pedal with a solenoid as it takes a lot of force... Unfortunately a SMG isn't that great unless the clutch is replaced so we'd have to come up with something...

I've been thinking about designing a SMG for my mid-engine Mini, and believe an all-mechanical approach is best. I'm a HW/SW engineer and know all about how a PIC-based controller could run it, but it's just too complex. I think some gears, drums, and ratchets woud be best.

I don't want to rain on the parade though; I think it would really cool if we could come up with a design. Heck if we come up with something cool there's probably a lot of potential if it can be made cheaply enough.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're not raining on MY parade. I've been involved in the devlopment of a PDA from scratch, a 32bit embedded system with a custom version of Linux and custom hardware that i'm working on now. An 8 or 16bit uC is cakewalk in comparision IMO. However, once you start attacking the clutch actuation portion of the project you will definatly grow a head of grey hairs. You would need a proportional device and several sensors to measure very slow wheel speeds. You would also need devices to measure the clutch fork throw, etc.

The electronic sequential gearbox consists of a baseplate to mount, a few air cylinders, a custom shifter, a few sensors, and lots of tuning with timing and the such.

I won't be using solenoids. I will however be using air cylinders which can exert MORE than enough force for this application. Clutch engagement would have to be controlled by a proportional device of some sort.

I've wanted to do this since before BMW even thought they'd even do an SMG transmission, they just have a few more engineers than myself .

When I get some time I think maybe i'll take a close look at whats involved for just the shifting not the clutch actuation.


Did I mention your custom-mini is the sickest project I've ever seen? I have been keeping up with it for some time now!

 

Some nice Bimba air cylinders are on their way :-D

This weekend if i get time i'll take apart the console and draw up the mounting plate. I also have to find a C02 tank and regulator cheap so i can test it.

 

all of this sounds like a great idea on paper (or in pixels in this case), but we all know how fast you can shift in a Honda before the syncros start to complain. I can shift as fast (or faster griiiind) buy using my left foot and my right hand with the stock shifter. I have thought about hooking up a clutch solonoid with a button or lever on the shifter so I don't have to use my foot at all. Left foot braking while down shifting might be pretty cool

You could also get an AT Honda and work on making a "tiptronic" electronic shifting setup.

 

Thats not really a sequential. Not much benifit for something like that, and its problably really expensive.

The best would be to convert the synchro's to dog engagement, then go the conventional route.

Ok, you have 3 shafts with 3 selector forks attached to them, they need to go, you then need a idles shaft to which your 3 new selecter forks will be sliding on, not attached anymore, you can then use another selector fork for your drum selector, you can control the drum selector manually with a ratched, or with solenoids and a ratched, or with stepper motors, its up to you.

IMO this will be a better way to go and will offer the real benifits of sequental shifting.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">all of this sounds like a great idea on paper (or in pixels in this case), but we all know how fast you can shift in a Honda before the syncros start to complain. I can shift as fast (or faster griiiind) buy using my left foot and my right hand with the stock shifter. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Of course you can - but I bet you can't do it consistently. I know people who can shift honda transmissions to rival the speeds of a sequential (of course not as fast, but damn close) however when you're shifting that fast it dosen't take much to miss the gear.

Best of all, it has a neat factor!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZoRG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thats not really a sequential. Not much benifit for something like that, and its problably really expensive.

The best would be to convert the synchro's to dog engagement, then go the conventional route.

Ok, you have 3 shafts with 3 selector forks attached to them, they need to go, you then need a idles shaft to which your 3 new selecter forks will be sliding on, not attached anymore, you can then use another selector fork for your drum selector, you can control the drum selector manually with a ratched, or with solenoids and a ratched, or with stepper motors, its up to you.

IMO this will be a better way to go and will offer the real benifits of sequental shifting.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You lost me :-)

 

This thread made me remember a part I once saw from 5Zigen, not a sequential shifter but it does deal with clutch activation. Couldn't find the part on 5Zigen Japans site but here is what I found:

http://takakaira.co.jp/asp/tab...hdkGf

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZoRG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thats not really a sequential. Not much benifit for something like that, and its problably really expensive.

The best would be to convert the synchro's to dog engagement, then go the conventional route.

Ok, you have 3 shafts with 3 selector forks attached to them, they need to go, you then need a idles shaft to which your 3 new selecter forks will be sliding on, not attached anymore, you can then use another selector fork for your drum selector, you can control the drum selector manually with a ratched, or with solenoids and a ratched, or with stepper motors, its up to you.

IMO this will be a better way to go and will offer the real benifits of sequental shifting.</TD></TR></TABLE>

not makin sense. the problem with dog toothing it is the excess noise

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This thread made me remember a part I once saw from 5Zigen, not a sequential shifter but it does deal with clutch activation. Couldn't find the part on 5Zigen Japans site but here is what I found:

http://takakaira.co.jp/asp/tab...hdkGf

</TD></TR></TABLE>
whoa, never seen that before - its nearly exactly what i was thinking about!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

not makin sense. the problem with dog toothing it is the excess noise</TD></TR></TABLE>

What extra noise?
you can't have sequential shifting without dog facing, you will just stuff up the synchro's anyway, its too fast.

 

The noise you are talking about is from straight cut gears, im not suggesting replacing the gears, there is a company that mods your existing gears to pro shift gears, then you just need to add the selector drum and ratched, shifter forks and away you go!