Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased
09-30-2004, 09:56 PM
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Re: Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased (ghettoracer)
(Plenum?) would probably benefit most motors if it was a little bigger on your manifold.
10-01-2004, 05:43 PM
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Re: Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased (SOUNDEFFECTS)
Soundeffects
A larger plenum is not always a guaranteed benefit. If the plenum is too large your spool will be to slow. Our off the shelf intake manifold makes 40hp in most applications while some have seen as much as 75 hp at 9500rpm This is due to the fact that the stock intake is very weak at those RPM's. Larger plenums are only good in certain applications, for example, a very large duration cam with a huge exhaust turbine + 11,000 RPM you would require a larger volume plenum. Getting anywhere over the 3.5L mark (including runners) on a lower RPM turning motor will significantly slow down your boost response. In the Magnus Talon we use our shelf model to show how well the intake works in both street and race apps.
A larger plenum is not always a guaranteed benefit. If the plenum is too large your spool will be to slow. Our off the shelf intake manifold makes 40hp in most applications while some have seen as much as 75 hp at 9500rpm This is due to the fact that the stock intake is very weak at those RPM's. Larger plenums are only good in certain applications, for example, a very large duration cam with a huge exhaust turbine + 11,000 RPM you would require a larger volume plenum. Getting anywhere over the 3.5L mark (including runners) on a lower RPM turning motor will significantly slow down your boost response. In the Magnus Talon we use our shelf model to show how well the intake works in both street and race apps.
10-01-2004, 06:54 PM
#29
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Re: Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased (AutoLab)
For a DSM, id say the Magnus manifold is a good bang for your buck. Plus its blingin! 
Ive driven a car before after the manifold, and it definately has some benefits
Ive driven a car before after the manifold, and it definately has some benefits
10-01-2004, 11:18 PM
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Re: Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased (matt_sb2000)
You do have a point about the plenum size relative to the RPM range and cam duration. I guess I'm thinking more of a 8000rpm honda motor with boost.
For example a B18c with 15psi on a type r intake manifold might produce 340whp
-Same motor at 15psi with an Edelbrock or STR manifold will produce around 360whp-370whp just because of its design(larger plenum). I just know Honda motors on boost like bigger plenums till they get too big and cross the mark of diminshing return.(loses low end HP but still gains on top, shifts power curve)
For example a B18c with 15psi on a type r intake manifold might produce 340whp
-Same motor at 15psi with an Edelbrock or STR manifold will produce around 360whp-370whp just because of its design(larger plenum). I just know Honda motors on boost like bigger plenums till they get too big and cross the mark of diminshing return.(loses low end HP but still gains on top, shifts power curve)
10-02-2004, 07:00 AM
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Re: Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased (SIXTYdashONE)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SIXTYdashONE »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Heres some pictures of a real intake manifold, Fabman Style </TD></TR></TABLE>
Can I get one at my local Pep Boy's
</TD></TR></TABLE> Can I get one at my local Pep Boy's
10-02-2004, 06:15 PM
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Re: Let me see ur Intake Manifolds fab'd or Purchased (SIXTYdashONE)
We are running a very similar manifold on our Meth car. Our manifold is more round but has the same idea for injector setup. Direct fire to to each cylinder. Fabman builds on hell of a manifold Nice Work!!!
10-02-2004, 06:24 PM
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Fact : Dual Stage runners are the best thing you can do all those I.M. posted are only good @ a certain RPM.
An example of a dual stage :
Made by engineers for a formula sae car.
Keep that in mind ITB's to block off the short runner when not in use (actuated by a servo to come on in relation to engine R.P.M. (I.E. , R.P.M. switch) and a plenum with long runners for super low end TQ.
Modified by MidShipCivic at 7:57 PM 10/2/2004
An example of a dual stage :
Made by engineers for a formula sae car.
Keep that in mind ITB's to block off the short runner when not in use (actuated by a servo to come on in relation to engine R.P.M. (I.E. , R.P.M. switch) and a plenum with long runners for super low end TQ. Modified by MidShipCivic at 7:57 PM 10/2/2004
10-02-2004, 07:00 PM
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Re: (Fabman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fabman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea but all you did was copy honda 
plus they are drag cars</TD></TR></TABLE>
Copy Honda? My *** honda uses a single valve to operate the short runners on the k-series IM, and the GS-R's is dual stage is operated by who knows what.
That design is nowhere close to Honda's design.
Honda isn't the only ones to do this other companies do this, cause its cheaper but not as effective as variable valve.
Drag cars? What are?
Even if I were to copy it's still better .
Modified by MidShipCivic at 8:11 PM 10/2/2004
plus they are drag cars</TD></TR></TABLE>Copy Honda? My *** honda uses a single valve to operate the short runners on the k-series IM, and the GS-R's is dual stage is operated by who knows what.
That design is nowhere close to Honda's design.
Honda isn't the only ones to do this other companies do this, cause its cheaper but not as effective as variable valve.
Drag cars? What are?
Even if I were to copy it's still better
.Modified by MidShipCivic at 8:11 PM 10/2/2004
10-02-2004, 07:12 PM
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Re: (Fabman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fabman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">all the intake in the post are for drag cars</TD></TR></TABLE>
Drag car dont need low end? Yeah I care about teh acceleration!
Not too many cars got the room for this though.
Drag car dont need low end? Yeah I care about teh acceleration!
Not too many cars got the room for this though.
10-02-2004, 08:39 PM
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Variable length runners are mostly used for NA motors... With forced induction. it is a complete different ball game. The way to make low-end with boost is to get the air to the engine as quick as possible, and that would have to do with turbo selection, exhaust manifold, etc....
That is why you don't see dual stage runners in factory turbocharged cars.
Most of the manifolds I see in this thread are for turbo cars.
That is why you don't see dual stage runners in factory turbocharged cars.
Most of the manifolds I see in this thread are for turbo cars.
10-02-2004, 09:20 PM
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Re: (Tony the Tiger)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Variable length runners are mostly used for NA motors... With forced induction. it is a complete different ball game. The way to make low-end with boost is to get the air to the engine as quick as possible, and that would have to do with turbo selection, exhaust manifold, etc....
That is why you don't see dual stage runners in factory turbocharged cars.
Most of the manifolds I see in this thread are for turbo cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I dont see you as an induction specialist
.
Getting the air in as fast as possible regardless if turbo or na would be plenum and runner designs.
Helmholtz is harder to tune though.
Matter of fact k20a3 turbo show more TQ gain than there k20a2 counter parts on boost.
Don't mean they arent for turbo its about cost effectiveness with manufacturers.
BTW your wrong, a car with dual runners and turbocharged is the galant vr-4. I'm sure there are plenty more.
That is why you don't see dual stage runners in factory turbocharged cars.
Most of the manifolds I see in this thread are for turbo cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I dont see you as an induction specialist
.Getting the air in as fast as possible regardless if turbo or na would be plenum and runner designs.
Helmholtz is harder to tune though.
Matter of fact k20a3 turbo show more TQ gain than there k20a2 counter parts on boost.
Don't mean they arent for turbo its about cost effectiveness with manufacturers.
BTW your wrong, a car with dual runners and turbocharged is the galant vr-4. I'm sure there are plenty more.
10-02-2004, 09:42 PM
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW your wrong, a car with dual runners and turbocharged is the galant vr-4. I'm sure there are plenty more.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Beat me to it.
Beat me to it.
10-02-2004, 09:52 PM
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
Hey midshipcivic
Take it easy dude there is no reason to freak on everyone that makes a comment about your post. I know Tony The Tiger he is local to me. He is a super cool guy and was not looking to cut you up or your knowledge. He was adding his input on the topic. Just because you posted pics of a superior induction method doesn't mean you have to cut up all the other stuff here. Honestly I have tried the dual runner set up in a DRAG CAR with no benefit . Not saying it doesn't work just it is not the best application for DRAG RACING.
10-03-2004, 01:17 AM
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Re: Re: (Tony the Tiger)
I am not trying to prove that dual stage runners are absolutely useless in a boosted motor... but this is purely in a gray area.
A lot of engine parts work against each other... We have guys porting cylinder heads to increase air velocity and better midrange.. We have some who port for ultimate flow and high HP numbers, etc... But let's say a head ported for midrange decides to use a straight shot short-runner intake manifold that is designed for high RPM. What do you get? Definitely not both. Something that possibly can counter each other. The intake manifold will kill the low-end, but the ports will choke off the high-end.
Variable length runners are good for NA cars... It is a simple and effective way to shape the powercurve. The engine is always sucking air, and the air path dicates how the engine breathes.
This is where is important -- On a boosted motor, the way it makes power is by getting boosted air. Intake manifold design will change the powercurve, but a simple change in the turbocharger will outweigh all the changes made by the intake manifold. When boosted air gets to the engine, it makes power. The quicker the boost gets to the engine, it makes power.
Intake runner length is probably so far down the list in terms of affecting low-end response. Just by running a smaller intercooler and shortening charge pipes can probably gain more low-end then to tune a variable length intake manifold.
I can safely assume that even if you had long intake runners designed for low-end working with a large turbocharger, it would not gain any significant low-end
It is far much easier to build a decent intake manifold with a larger tank, and then size the turbo to shape the powerband. Just by playing with turbo selection will cause large enough changes to render the dual stage runners practically useless.
From my experiences at least, I have never seen any huge low-end numbers from turbocharged cars with dual stage runners. Take the B18C1 GSR for example. I see guys making more power starting off idle by swapping to an ITR/Skunk2 intake manifold.
I really didn't know that the Galant had dual stage runners... But why so rare though. Probably doesn't work really well, or else, it would be a lot more common. But in reality, the money would rather be invested in a better turbo because that is what mainly shapes the powerband of a turbo car.
On the other hand, there is probably a page long list of NA cars with variable/dual stage intake runners This should get my point across
A lot of engine parts work against each other... We have guys porting cylinder heads to increase air velocity and better midrange.. We have some who port for ultimate flow and high HP numbers, etc... But let's say a head ported for midrange decides to use a straight shot short-runner intake manifold that is designed for high RPM. What do you get? Definitely not both. Something that possibly can counter each other. The intake manifold will kill the low-end, but the ports will choke off the high-end.
Variable length runners are good for NA cars... It is a simple and effective way to shape the powercurve. The engine is always sucking air, and the air path dicates how the engine breathes.
This is where is important -- On a boosted motor, the way it makes power is by getting boosted air. Intake manifold design will change the powercurve, but a simple change in the turbocharger will outweigh all the changes made by the intake manifold. When boosted air gets to the engine, it makes power. The quicker the boost gets to the engine, it makes power.
Intake runner length is probably so far down the list in terms of affecting low-end response. Just by running a smaller intercooler and shortening charge pipes can probably gain more low-end then to tune a variable length intake manifold.
I can safely assume that even if you had long intake runners designed for low-end working with a large turbocharger, it would not gain any significant low-end
It is far much easier to build a decent intake manifold with a larger tank, and then size the turbo to shape the powerband. Just by playing with turbo selection will cause large enough changes to render the dual stage runners practically useless.
From my experiences at least, I have never seen any huge low-end numbers from turbocharged cars with dual stage runners. Take the B18C1 GSR for example. I see guys making more power starting off idle by swapping to an ITR/Skunk2 intake manifold.
I really didn't know that the Galant had dual stage runners... But why so rare though. Probably doesn't work really well, or else, it would be a lot more common. But in reality, the money would rather be invested in a better turbo because that is what mainly shapes the powerband of a turbo car.
On the other hand, there is probably a page long list of NA cars with variable/dual stage intake runners
This should get my point across
10-03-2004, 12:55 PM
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
lighten up MidShipCivic. u don't have to prove u know it all in everypost... it's the damn internet net.
show some manners. there are lot of experienced ppl on this board and of course lot of 'em are thinkers and tinkers.
fabman: my mama can weld better than that
show some manners. there are lot of experienced ppl on this board and of course lot of 'em are thinkers and tinkers.
fabman: my mama can weld better than that
10-03-2004, 01:40 PM
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Re: (ghettoracer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lighten up MidShipCivic. u don't have to prove u know it all in everypost... it's the damn internet net.
show some manners. there are lot of experienced ppl on this board and of course lot of 'em are thinkers and tinkers.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
WTF are you, go bark some where else.
Tony the tiger, honestly I think you have no say in what works or not, just exprience and theory, no flow rates, dyno or facts. I may have thought at once that ITB's and turbocharging works well but after hitting the books I know it won't work too well for several reasons.
I said the k20a3 with its factory manifold made more TQ on boost than the k20a2 with its I.M. not an aftermarket unit.
How do you know it did not work well on a galant? VR-4 owners swaped the IM with higher flowing dual stage I.M.'s.
I'm not continuing this we all know whats better @ making better use of power @ low and high rpms. It not as simple as changing turbos and screwing with the IC pipes it all ends up going to the IM thats where it will determine how well it works.
One more thing <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony the tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> A lot of engine parts work against each other... We have guys porting cylinder heads to increase air velocity and better midrange.. We have some who port for ultimate flow and high HP numbers, etc... But let's say a head ported for midrange decides to use a straight shot short-runner intake manifold that is designed for high RPM. What do you get? Definitely not both. Something that possibly can counter each other. The intake manifold will kill the low-end, but the ports will choke off the high-end.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You forgot about VTEC?
Add VTEC to that list variable intake.
show some manners. there are lot of experienced ppl on this board and of course lot of 'em are thinkers and tinkers.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
WTF are you, go bark some where else.
Tony the tiger, honestly I think you have no say in what works or not, just exprience and theory, no flow rates, dyno or facts. I may have thought at once that ITB's and turbocharging works well but after hitting the books I know it won't work too well for several reasons.
I said the k20a3 with its factory manifold made more TQ on boost than the k20a2 with its I.M. not an aftermarket unit.
How do you know it did not work well on a galant? VR-4 owners swaped the IM with higher flowing dual stage I.M.'s.
I'm not continuing this we all know whats better @ making better use of power @ low and high rpms. It not as simple as changing turbos and screwing with the IC pipes it all ends up going to the IM thats where it will determine how well it works.
One more thing <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony the tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> A lot of engine parts work against each other... We have guys porting cylinder heads to increase air velocity and better midrange.. We have some who port for ultimate flow and high HP numbers, etc... But let's say a head ported for midrange decides to use a straight shot short-runner intake manifold that is designed for high RPM. What do you get? Definitely not both. Something that possibly can counter each other. The intake manifold will kill the low-end, but the ports will choke off the high-end.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You forgot about VTEC?
Add VTEC to that list
variable intake.
10-03-2004, 02:22 PM
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
WTF are you, go bark some where else.
Tony the tiger, honestly I think you have no say in what works or not
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Where the **** do you get the ***** to talk like that!
By the way just because a design works on paper and in mathematical formulas IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS THE BEST DESIGN. If that were the case there would be no need for R&D or track testing and tuning.
Just because you are good with numbers and formulas does not give you the right to tell people they have no say.
A drawing and numbers is one step.
Bench testing is the next
Then actual testing on the car on track real life testing NOT WEB FORM TRASHING!!
WTF are you, go bark some where else.
Tony the tiger, honestly I think you have no say in what works or not
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Where the **** do you get the ***** to talk like that!
By the way just because a design works on paper and in mathematical formulas IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS THE BEST DESIGN. If that were the case there would be no need for R&D or track testing and tuning.
Just because you are good with numbers and formulas does not give you the right to tell people they have no say.
A drawing and numbers is one step.
Bench testing is the next
Then actual testing on the car on track real life testing NOT WEB FORM TRASHING!!
10-03-2004, 02:35 PM
#49
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
Misdhip, If you don't like to discuss, that's fine with me. When I talk, all I do is benefit others in reality. But I mean, look at your noob registered date... You must not know me pretty well, or even at all.
Variable intake --> variable runner length --> the passage the air goes through before it can reach to the engine.
VTEC --> cam lift and valve opening. Controls the amount of air and fuel into the engine allowing a slower burn at lower RPM's. It doesn't extend or shorten the path of air. When the valves open, the air should be readily available.
They are not the same thing.
Quick question... You have any experience in NA honda motors? Or how about boosted? Somehow I am clueless on how you get to know "everything". You know, like ITB's on a boosted HONDA motor (when I am basically the only one...lol), or variable length runners on a boosted HONDA motor (when all I see are lower numbers). Just don't forget engine geometry So who knows what books you are reading.
Variable intake --> variable runner length --> the passage the air goes through before it can reach to the engine.
VTEC --> cam lift and valve opening. Controls the amount of air and fuel into the engine allowing a slower burn at lower RPM's. It doesn't extend or shorten the path of air. When the valves open, the air should be readily available.
They are not the same thing.
Quick question... You have any experience in NA honda motors? Or how about boosted? Somehow I am clueless on how you get to know "everything". You know, like ITB's on a boosted HONDA motor (when I am basically the only one...lol), or variable length runners on a boosted HONDA motor (when all I see are lower numbers). Just don't forget engine geometry
So who knows what books you are reading.