Custom DIY lower Tie Bar.
06-12-2005, 09:41 PM
#51
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Re: (racer_X_123)
I have to give you credit on this even if your first design was flawed the craftsmanship was great good clean welds 2nd attempt a lot better.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racer_X_123 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and all you negative people, keep waisting your money having other people trick out your car for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
EXACTLY I love it when people ask where I had the work done and I tell them my garage
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racer_X_123 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and all you negative people, keep waisting your money having other people trick out your car for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
EXACTLY I love it when people ask where I had the work done and I tell them my garage
06-12-2005, 09:45 PM
#52
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Re: (racer_X_123)
racer, as you know, i got all the respect in the world for ya. i dont want to hi-jack ur thread, but wana let TEG wats up. so you think the bearings are going to give before the bar does any good? ever looked at the RSLC on a NAME BRAND AURORA rod end?? these particular ones, being 7/16 threads....are rated at 6345 lbs....and thats RSLC!!! i HIGHLY doubt it will even budge before the bar does something. which...being that the bar is adjustable...it is ALWAYS doing something. all other bars out there only do something after taking up the slop, when a load is exerted on them. with this bar, it will ALWAYS be working for you. theres no slop to take up when the laod is exerted because it is already pulling or pushing the mounts together or apart from each other. as i said...talk to anyone with a DA that has bought one of these, and they will tell you whats up. again, my question...ever seen a DA drift??? 
again, sorry racer! again, good job and keep at it!
kyle
again, sorry racer! again, good job and keep at it!
kyle
06-13-2005, 06:17 AM
#53
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (blueoval557)
Your missing the point, and I am not trying to hate on your bar as it looks very well made and high quality. I just wouldn't have a spherical bearing at the mounting point. The same design minus the bearing would be perfect. Instead of getting defensive you could listen to what I was saying and possibly improve them.
A chassis reenforcement bar is designed to prevent flex correct?
Flex is movement of the chassis correct?
A spherical bearing is designed to allow movement correct? (which is why they are used to replace bushings)
Would you use a bushing as the mounting point for your tie bar? No, of course not. Essentially thats what you are doing.
It has nothing to do with the rod ends themselves, its the fact that its a SPHERICAL bearing. Spherical bearings are designed to allow movement, a chassis reenforcement bar is supposed to PREVENT movement. I don't know if I can make it any more clear?
and yes I have seen many fwd cars drift, and it had more to do with wheel/spring rates than tie bars.
A chassis reenforcement bar is designed to prevent flex correct?
Flex is movement of the chassis correct?
A spherical bearing is designed to allow movement correct? (which is why they are used to replace bushings)
Would you use a bushing as the mounting point for your tie bar? No, of course not. Essentially thats what you are doing.
It has nothing to do with the rod ends themselves, its the fact that its a SPHERICAL bearing. Spherical bearings are designed to allow movement, a chassis reenforcement bar is supposed to PREVENT movement. I don't know if I can make it any more clear?
and yes I have seen many fwd cars drift, and it had more to do with wheel/spring rates than tie bars.
06-13-2005, 08:19 AM
#54
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Re: (StyleTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A spherical bearing is designed to allow movement correct? (which is why they are used to replace bushings)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Since you've never seen a spherical bearing, I'll explain it to you. Spherical bearings are nearly identical to a rubber suspension bushing, but differ in that they're not rubber and that they essentially are a ball and socket with a hole through the ball to allow a bolt or other fastener through to secure it to something. Heim joints (what you two really mean) employ a small spherical bearing at the end, but also have a threaded male or female stud attached to the outer portion of the joint (the socket). Anyway... the heim joint designed to allow unlimited radial movement in the axis of rotation around the mounting stud, limited radial movement in an axis of rotation perpendicular to the mounting stud and NO linear movement in an axis perpendicular to the mounting stud. This is the type of movement you want to control, and it just happens to be the type of movement that a heim joint will prevent.
This is a spherical bearing:
They're used in place of rubber bushings when no adjustment is needed or wanted. They can be found either with a bushed bearing or with ball bearings.
This is a female heim joint:
and a male heim joint:
Heim joints also used in place of rubber bushings, but are only employed when tubular suspension components are used and ease of adjustment is needed. They offer the ability to build an overall lighter suspension package, however spherical bearings are almost drop in replacements for your rubber bushings and allow you to retain your OEM suspension components.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Since you've never seen a spherical bearing, I'll explain it to you. Spherical bearings are nearly identical to a rubber suspension bushing, but differ in that they're not rubber and that they essentially are a ball and socket with a hole through the ball to allow a bolt or other fastener through to secure it to something. Heim joints (what you two really mean) employ a small spherical bearing at the end, but also have a threaded male or female stud attached to the outer portion of the joint (the socket). Anyway... the heim joint designed to allow unlimited radial movement in the axis of rotation around the mounting stud, limited radial movement in an axis of rotation perpendicular to the mounting stud and NO linear movement in an axis perpendicular to the mounting stud. This is the type of movement you want to control, and it just happens to be the type of movement that a heim joint will prevent.
This is a spherical bearing:
They're used in place of rubber bushings when no adjustment is needed or wanted. They can be found either with a bushed bearing or with ball bearings.
This is a female heim joint:
and a male heim joint:
Heim joints also used in place of rubber bushings, but are only employed when tubular suspension components are used and ease of adjustment is needed. They offer the ability to build an overall lighter suspension package, however spherical bearings are almost drop in replacements for your rubber bushings and allow you to retain your OEM suspension components.
06-13-2005, 08:31 AM
#55
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (Loco Honkey)
I don't think we really needed a paragraph explaining how a heim joint is essentially a spherical bearing with a threaded stud.
But, first off you are assuming that the flexing of the chassis happens in linear movement. This is not the case, you have to remember that especially in this area the areas that are sending load to the chassis are not simply happening in a linear area. Not only is there force from the lower control arm, but also look at the arch of the upper control arm which is going to cause a twisting force on the subframe.
The rear swaybar is also another suspension member that is going to cause a non-linear load on the subframe.
The rear trailing arm, also attached to the hub has its own arch of load.
Lets not forget that the most famous display of rear subframe flex on honda's is the sway bar mounting brackets tearing out.
Secondly, chassis flex in itself is unpredictable. Which is one of the major reasons we try and prevent it. If we could predict where the suspension points would move under flex with accuracy then it is possible we could simply alter the suspension charectoristics around it instead of fighting to try and control it.
Long story short, a long while ago, a friend got a "custom" rear strut bar with heim joint (
) ends. We fabbed mock rear shock towers to see how the joint reacted under stress and found that it allowed movement. Once we torched the ends and pressed the bearing out the problem was solved.
But, first off you are assuming that the flexing of the chassis happens in linear movement. This is not the case, you have to remember that especially in this area the areas that are sending load to the chassis are not simply happening in a linear area. Not only is there force from the lower control arm, but also look at the arch of the upper control arm which is going to cause a twisting force on the subframe.
The rear swaybar is also another suspension member that is going to cause a non-linear load on the subframe.
The rear trailing arm, also attached to the hub has its own arch of load.
Lets not forget that the most famous display of rear subframe flex on honda's is the sway bar mounting brackets tearing out.
Secondly, chassis flex in itself is unpredictable. Which is one of the major reasons we try and prevent it. If we could predict where the suspension points would move under flex with accuracy then it is possible we could simply alter the suspension charectoristics around it instead of fighting to try and control it.
Long story short, a long while ago, a friend got a "custom" rear strut bar with heim joint (
) ends. We fabbed mock rear shock towers to see how the joint reacted under stress and found that it allowed movement. Once we torched the ends and pressed the bearing out the problem was solved.
06-13-2005, 09:45 AM
#56
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Re: (StyleTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think we really needed a paragraph explaining how a heim joint is essentially a spherical bearing with a threaded stud.
blablablablablablabla, ectetera, ad nauseum...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not really going to argue this, because you enjoy splitting hairs and debating the most trivial issues, and aren't able to read between lines and grasp concepts. Furthermore, it's not my car, so he can put tin foil under there for all I care. Feel free to sit smugly in your "knowledge," however you fool no one into thinking you've taken even the most basic stress analysis or chassis dynamics classes. I was talking specifically how the tie rod works and how a heim joint is acceptable in the direct application of controlling the forces produced by lower control arms. Then you bring in all the other factors and tell me how my design won't help with everything else. No **** it won't. It's not supposed to; that's what other parts and braces are for. You do have a few points that are in the ballpark of correctness, but you're too focused on the little things to realize that it all works as a system, and no individual part is more important than the rest.
Take this as you may, and repost as you will. Your words will not affect anything I think, do or say.
blablablablablablabla, ectetera, ad nauseum...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not really going to argue this, because you enjoy splitting hairs and debating the most trivial issues, and aren't able to read between lines and grasp concepts. Furthermore, it's not my car, so he can put tin foil under there for all I care. Feel free to sit smugly in your "knowledge," however you fool no one into thinking you've taken even the most basic stress analysis or chassis dynamics classes. I was talking specifically how the tie rod works and how a heim joint is acceptable in the direct application of controlling the forces produced by lower control arms. Then you bring in all the other factors and tell me how my design won't help with everything else. No **** it won't. It's not supposed to; that's what other parts and braces are for. You do have a few points that are in the ballpark of correctness, but you're too focused on the little things to realize that it all works as a system, and no individual part is more important than the rest.
Take this as you may, and repost as you will. Your words will not affect anything I think, do or say.
06-13-2005, 10:09 AM
#57
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (Loco Honkey)
You missed my point (how there are different directions of force on the subframe other than simply lateral), but you obviously are not open to any constructive ideas in the first place.
The model I set up showed movement of the bearing under load, all-be-it small amounts, and that is ineffective.
do what you want , but I will continue making my chassis re-enforcements hinge and spherical bearing free.
The model I set up showed movement of the bearing under load, all-be-it small amounts, and that is ineffective.
do what you want , but I will continue making my chassis re-enforcements hinge and spherical bearing free.
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