anytime you see any import show or read a mag about an allmotor car they go on about how special they are because they didnt use a turbo (etc)... and how hard it is to make power and how they are tuning gods because they magically found out how to do it.. gimme a break...
I dont know where they get off thinking its so much harder to make power. Not like its never been done before and not like there isnt a buttload of info to guide you down the right path. Not like there isnt parts coming from every direction.
Why do N/A feel like they have to be all big and what not because they did it all motor?
Doesnt make any sense to me.
Some of the top racers, I may see a point but for those going 12's ,
I dont see the big deal in doing so. anyways..
just something ive been thinking about lately.
any thoughts?

 

Maybe you need to do more research on making power w/o turbo.

to make big n/a power 240whp+ you have to have special things that most people do not know about.

to make power fi, just either increase air efficiency (flow) by putting bigger IC, better exhaust, intake. or get a big turbo and then turn the boost up.

you cant just buy a bigger cam when you are all motor and already have toda spec d. any bigger cam wont do much, or it will possibly hurt your reliabilty

but with turbo you can just buy bigger injectors, and a big *** ball bearing turbo from greddy or whatever. and you just hit higher whp

now, there is of couse a limit of making power fi. if you are already at 500whp at around ~20psi of boost. it is not always easy to get more power from the basic stuff. but it is still generally easier by just throwing more money at the FI setup, then throwing way more money into getting 10-15whp n/a

 

yes and no..
its not as easy at just throwing in some bigger injectors and up the boost...
like I said, theres tonnes of places to get info(if you dont have it) and or its been done for a while now..so going fast all motor isnt exactly earth shattering anymore.(12's.... maybe even high 11's... but faster than that....they you can brag and go on and on.. no matter what you used to get there)

its this whole attitude that im better and smarter than you FI guys cause i went 12.5 @108 n/a
its like why a lot of people hate honda owners.... because of a lot of the **** talking ricers. To me, its making me hate the a lot the n/a people. its like shut up already.(for the record..i love n/a and boost! so its not like im against n/a at all..not in the least)..its the drivers/owners who are becoming increasingly annoying..(of course this doesnt mean all of them)


[Modified by SiRkid, 5:10 AM 2/12/2003]

 

I am not sure what you are asking

If you are talking about making big n/a whp 240-250whp+ It isnt very easy, it takes a lot of dyno tuning, and getting the right mods to match up with each other.

but what I think you main point is, the attitude of n/a guys that are somewhat fast

i havent encountered it that much. but some humans on earth are just dumb and dont really have an idea of what is happenin around them. your guess is as good as anyone else's.

and yes, adding bigger injectors/turbo/higher flow intake exhaust parts. will give you a lot more power. for instance if you already have a sms/hytech header. you will have to spend 3k+ to get more power compared to those.
on lets say a mitsu 4g63 with a evo 3 exhaust manifold, it will make power and not be the main limiter on power. compared to head, cams, intake manifold, turbo, intake piping. a n/a high hp engine will have all of those things already done. vs. a 400whp+ fi car probably only has mild cams/head work/turbo/intake manifold. if they added all of the top of the line in each dept. then it will yield a lot more power

or are we talking about something different

 

im not sure anymore .lol ..im not saying that FI you can make more power..thats a given..
more about the attitude of the people but also related to making some good n/a power..its been done a boatload of times.. so people with the knowledge and money , can usually bust out some decent numbers.
and I said, for the higher end racers. I do see a point to bragging about getting high power but the same thing can be said for high end turbo racers.. at that point for them, they cant just add this turbo or up the boost..other things will need to be tested/ worked on to get some more power..or ultimately for fwd..money will be spent trying to improve traction.

 

dude your post is ridiculous. there will be cocky people, both all motor or forced induction, who gives a ****. just ignore them, dont waste your time pondering upon their attitudes and why they do what they do.

 

The point of making a motor more powerful whether it be n/a or fi is to take it to the max. Building motors has never peaked, what I mean by that is motor heads and engine building is an ever evolving process.

My pop used to drag race back in the day and squeezing 350-375 ponies out of a motor for the backyard mech was kicking. Now days thats really nothing for a V-8, evolution of motor building goes on and on.

So when they speak of an engine builder crossing a threshold it will at some point make building power easier for us "backyard mechanics".

I ramble alot.

 

It all depends on what you like. I decided on n/a only for my car for no other reason than I sorta like the high revving powerband on the B16a. I've also driven Civics with H22a, LS, CRVtec, and SOHC turbo, and each one is different. Hell most were even faster than my car, but I still like having to rev out my motor. Just a personal choice.

As for quarter times, most people will claim n/a because running a 12.7 all motor is more difficult than doing it with a turbo. A twelve second street car with a turbo'd motor is sweet, and fast as ****, but without f/i its even more impressive.

Just different strokes for different folks man

 

It's about bragging rights. I am N/A and I know there are boosted cars alot quicker than mine, but I have done it more effectivly and efficently ,so that in itself is room to brag...IMO.
Slapping on a turbo and pulling down 12's is'nt easy, that I can appreciate, but to do it on the motor is even more impressive. I have a GS-R HB in the 12's N/A and I'm proud to say I did it on a tight budget, I am constantly impressed with my set-up and feel there should be some recognition there...call me crazy, but that is a huge bonus for my car was'nt meant to go that fast. But whatever, to each his own...

 

all motor is harder becuase you cant just turn up the boost like you cant with turbo . to gain more hp is quite an accomplishment especially if your trying to get that exta tenth. i have built all motor and turbo engines and there both great. but all motor is more a challenge to go faster. thats just a fact. i mean turbo is not as hard to gain hp. but its much harder to get it all right and see the car go down the track without problems. with more power comes more problems that may arise.. thats my 2 cents.

 

put it this way, if you learned all the tricks to make HP on an n/a motor then applied it to a forced induction motor, you will make almost 1000hp ... and thats NO BULL ...

as for cocky people, it happens regardless of induction type, n/a or forced.

Greg

 

sounds like someone got beat by an N/a car.

 

Tuning a N/A car isn't simple, but everyone makes it sound like a retarded monkey could build a fast turbo car. To effectively design a turbo system for any car you must understand compressor maps, pressure ratios, A/F ratios, proper turbo sizing, intercooler pressure loss, etc...
The benefit of not being wealthy is that you can't exactly run out and buy just any ol' turbo kit as soon as the idea of boost crosses your mind. The time it's taking me to save for my kit has given me plenty of time to read up on the finer points of forced induction and I do not believe my purchase will be at all impulsive or uninformed.

P.S. I'm looking around the library right now and the support pillars really look like intake/exhaust valves holding the ceiling up, kind of creepy...

 

I think the point trying to come across is that N/a does take more to run equivilant times who in there right mind would knock a n/a car that runs 12's. It is much harder to make an N/a car fast... You have to think the average guy can just slap a turbo on a stock motor and make 250 hp atw it takes alot more money and time to make an n/a car make that much power. think about it

turbo= easier to make power
n/a = harder to make the same power

 

I hate people who don't have forced induction! Losers!!!


I NA

 

Good point. there is a lot of info out there, and it really is not that much harder. Crank up the compression, be more careful when portng and polishiing (dont go to big) lighten the **** out of everything(I know I just made it sound simple). The same 'TRICKS' used to make an N/A car fast can be used on a turbo car to go even faster.

I like both set ups, and I'm not talking ****, just expanding on SiRkid's point.

one more thing
N/A cars are only streetable to a point. Gas just gets too damned expensive after a certain compression ratio. FI cars can always turn down the boost.

 

Speaking of fi i just caught a little tidbit in a mag about Hondas concept....Turbo car. Yeah.

 

i didnt read all the posts but the way i think of it is that people think that if you have a turbo, your car is gonna be fast. but if you have an all motor car, they're most likely gonna think it's not as fast as the turbo. so when you see a turbo car against an allmotor and the allmotor wins, then you would/should be suprised. why? becuase wtih a turbo its much easier becuase you arent as limited. with all motor you have a certain limit, turbo has somewhat of a infinate power type thing. becuase with turbo, you just up the boosta nd you have more power, but with allmotor you cant just get a better cam and make that much more power. so basicall y all i am saying is that it is much harder (in most ways) to make an all motor car faster than a tuned turbo car. it's different wtih different peoples perspectives

 

you guys go on about just turning up the boost..
hello... turbo honda.... n/a motor plus boost does not mean just turn up the boost..
sure the TURBO itself can go till like 500 hp(depending on turbo)
but that doesnt mean the motor can,
you guys talk like a honda motor is built for boost.
ahaha.
and btw, IM STILL N/A!!!!!!!! I still love the sound of the change over at 5500 and always will.
I dont know where allmotor guys got this idea that building an n/a motor is harder than building a motor for boost..
your both swapping parts are you not?
the info is out there to build both and theres actually more info on building an n/a honda than boosted(which makes sense).
also, you cant apply all your n/a tricks to a turbo car... they are completely different animals
I also find that most boosted guys know more about n/a than n/a guys know about turbo..which means most n/a guys have no clue what it takes.
im not saying I know all or turbo guys know all but most of them were n/a guys before switching to boost so they have some knowledge of what it takes to go n/a.

[Modified by SiRkid, 2:06 PM 2/13/2003]


[Modified by SiRkid, 2:08 PM 2/13/2003]

 

Oh man, we need the Member's Corner back on H-T.

I think alot of the attitude you get from people acting like ******** when it comes to cars is because they actually ARE ********, not because their car is NA or FI.

 

lol, so true.
its just the last little while the media has really started feeding it.. like building a turbo motor is so easy .
if it were so why arent so many getting it right?

 

You dont build a boost motor the same way you do an N/a motor they are different you have to go through much greater intesive measurements on a n/a motor as far as piston to vavle clearance measuremnt of cam profiles ect. You dont have anything making the power for you. whatever air comes in is all you have to use in any n/a application. there is no comparison. I dont know about you i have had both i love turbo but N/a has interested me for a while. I am finally building my n/a setup you cant tell me that when you pull up to a turbo car and you blow his doors off in your n/a car cause hes back there still trying to get traction that you wont be bragging as well. come on

 

i wouldnt..run what ya brung..
you win , you win..you lose, you lose.
n/a, spray, turbo..whatever.
i dont knwo why n/a people feel so special cause they made this power or beat this car that has more power..
obviously if the turbo car coudl get traction you would get owned..
but thats not the point..
the attitudes of a lot of n/a folks is terrible compared to most.

i guess a turbo motor is all lose and wobly like a fiero or something..lol
what compression do you think the top dogs run? and rev to?


[Modified by SiRkid, 8:38 PM 2/13/2003]

 

uggghhhh. Like we dont get enough crap from 75% of the automotive community as it is much less arguing amongst ourselves about fi n/a.

If someone doesn't appreciate the mechanics of building motors ie: turbo or N/A
it's usually not worth the argument or debate. Just think of all the dumb a**'s you've talked to that dont even get why you would build a Honda. Not worth my time to explain to somebody that aint gonna listen.

Can't we all just get a bong...oops...along?

 

wow this post makes me sick.... building a na motor takes a lot of dyno time ... trial and error and also extreme about of not only physics and flow but math and many many many hours of sitting in front of a calculator doing fomulas .... other than simply "turning up the booste" there is only soo much atmospheric presure to deal with so improveing over 100 % efficiency which is what it takes to build sick power from a na motor gets much R-E-S-P-E-C-T from me... in the future know what you are talking about before you start knocking people and if you dont know just let it be! tia