I ran into some serious problems with my engine after attempting a camshaft/timing belt/water pump replacement.

Episode #1:
First problem was that I broke the ITR intake cam I got from Pinhead. I keyed it the wrong way b/c I didn't know the distributor and intake cam interlocks were asymmetrical (thanks for not telling anybody C-Speed). I didn't find out until reading through the electrical section that they're asymmetrical.

Result: Car wouldn't start. Broke a chunk out of ITR intake cam and bent the distributor key end that fits into the intake cam. The biggest bitch is that you can't buy just that piece of the distributor....new distributor housing: $280.00 from Duluth Acura.

Lesson: Remove the distributor when installing cams, or at least make sure that it's keyed properly.

Episode #2:
Put the GS-R cams back in and filed the distributor key to fit. Get everything back together, making sure that the cam gears, distributor, and oil pump gear/crank pulley are all lined up to TDC on cylinder #1. I even used the hook car jack tool to check for TDC in cylinder #1....checked out ok (pairing up with cylinder #4 in height). I tension the belt. Tighten the tensioner. Do a valve adjustment. Put everything back together.

Result: Start the car and it idles rough, has intermittent power cuts, louder than normal ticking, runs very rich, spews black/wet exhaust, sometimes hard to start, and sounds like a lawnmower. Does not stall tho. Probably bent the valves.

Lesson: ??? Dunno what the lesson is b/c I don't know what I did wrong.

Stupidest move on my part: I torn it down again after episode #2 just to check (visually checked out OK - everything still aligned @ TDC), and drove it 10 minutes to buy distilled water (still making the tapping sound from the exhaust side).

When I tore it down, the whiteout marks I made on the timing belt/camgears had shifted. They no longer lined up when I visually inspected everything. Is this normal even tho everything still lined up @ TDC for cylinder #1?

Episode #3:
I stop at a gas station on the way home to put the water/coolant in (already had a gallon in it before driving to Krogers). Open the bleed bolt and radiator cap, and I find small drops of oil in coolant....not much, but more than the none I'm used to seeing.

None of the upper or lower radiator hoses were filled with coolant even tho I had a gallon in the radiator.

Thermostat not opening? -Not likely considering I just replaced the old one with a Spoon unit that I checked.

Water pump not turning? - Not likely either. Gear was lined up with the belt and it turns when you turn the belt. Could the timing belt be skipping? -Not likely otherwise the car wouldn't even run for so long.

Also, another sound shows up. From down lower in the block. Now, I'm thinking I spun a bearing....main or rod....dunno yet. we tow it to J&H Racing in Bloomington so that I can get it in there and work on it.

I'm still hoping it's something minor, but I'm expecting the worst. The parts order for the worst is running a tab of close to $900 of stock parts...assuming I bent all the valves.

Final Question: Can the timing belt tensioner not be tight enough if I don't torque it to 40lb*ft? - I got it as tight as I could using a medium-sized 3/8" drive ratchet.

Hopefully I made enough sense for you guys to understand me.

Tomorrow - compression check.


[Modified by IN VTEC, 4:03 AM 7/1/2002]

 

Compression test results:

cyl #1: 196
cyl #2: 213
cyl #3: 213
cyl #4: 60

Cylinder #4 is officially dead. I thought it'd be a lot worse considering the noises it was making. I hope the valve seats and head are OK and reusable without a hitch.

 

My condolences on the mishap... sounds like the valves are bent. Good thing is that its not a catastrophic failure. some new valves and possibly new guides will fix it.

As for our cam install article - I guess we should have been a little bit more clear on the intake cam install. However, like you discovered, the slot on the intake cam is OFFSET - it is *very* difficult to install it backwards. You have to apply some considerable force to get the cam in 180 degress off with the distributor.

We will make the necessary changes to the article.. however i'll add to your list of "lessons learned":


When things don't appear to fit - don't force them.

Good luck.

 

I put the cam on the distributor, not vice versa. It was a tired mistake @ 4:00AM.

I don't blame you guys for it b/c I didn't even have your pages there in front of me when I did it. I just don't remember seeing any mention of it [when I read the how-to].

Who knows, maybe I didn't install it incorrectly. It was just my reasoning for the intake cam breaking. I could swear that I had it firmly seated into the distributor key, and the intake cam wasn't popping up at a weird angle or anything.

Anyways, still, none of it explains how I screwed up cyl #4.


[Modified by IN VTEC, 11:43 PM 7/1/2002]

 

Do you have pics of the damage? Where did the cam physicall break?

I'm sure you TORQUED the cam caps down right?

Sometimes the cams are defective too.. some JUN3 and crowers have snapped at idle!

 

do you have a helms manual?

 

Dude. Head gasket all the way. I've had overheating problems on my LS/VTEC before I took it apart, and it was a bad head gasket. Obiously, the gasket around the #4 cylinder is blown out, and the oil from the cylinder is leaking past it into your coolant. All the pressures from the combustion on the head gasket are making the water flow into your combustion chamber, burn partially, hence the "wet" exhaust and unburnt fuel. Take your head off, get some new head studs. I hope you didn't let your car heat up too much to where it warped the surface of the head. Otherwise, you're going to need to resurface the block and the head. Your problems were probably initially un-related. Get another stock gasket from Honda. Head studs are a good idea at the same time, but not always necessary. Helms says to replace them everytime the head is taken off.

When you have the head off, take the intake manifold off, set the head on it's side, and pour water into the intake ports and let it sit for a couple hours, and look for leaks on the combustion chamber side, the more water you see running out, the more the valves are bent, repeat the proceedure on the exhaust side.

Let us know how everything goes.

You can break any cam you want if the valve lash is mis-adjusted, And if you put the distributor in 180° from where it should be, it will make the timing belt put way too much tension on the intake side cam gear, and the timing belt will jump teeth. When you put the timing belt back on, you should always turn the crank over 3-5 times to be sure the timing belt isn't jumping or putting excess stress on any componets, then tension the tensioner. I don't mean to tell you what you should of done, but for future referance, it's a good idea.

Off the subject, be sure to torque the crank bolt down with a competent impact wrench, otherwise she'll fall off on you in traffic and you'll have to do the timing belt again, in a foreign place... say like a certain Hyndai dealership. Don't ask why I'd know anything about this. (oops)


[Modified by Midori Shinkansen, 7:03 AM 7/2/2002]


[Modified by Midori Shinkansen, 7:05 AM 7/2/2002]

 

I do have a SM.

The cam broke at the interface with the distributor. Took a small .5" chip out of one side. It's like the distributor tore a chunk into it. I'll have pics when I start tearing down the engine.

Cams could not have been defective. They were Pinhead's OEM '00 ITR cams. 35k miles on them. Nothing wrong with that. Cams showed more wear than my GS-R cams @ 75k miles, but no deep scoring or fingernail-catching.

Cam caps torqued in sequence and to spec - inside to out, and to 20lb*ft for the 12mm bolts and studs, and 7.5lb*ft for the outer 10mm bolts.

Cam caps were placed back in the correct order b/c I remember bending one of the dowel pins b/c I read the numbers on the caps wrong. Shoulda double-checked the manual before doing it. Didn't realize it until I made the first couple of turns. Very little harm done to the cam holder, and I replaced the dowel pin with an OEM unit. $1.98 @ my honda dealer.

There's very little oil in the coolant, but it is oil nonetheless. I checked the dipstick and there's no flooding into the oil galleys. Positive pressure from combustion is probably what was pushing the oil into the coolant passages.

It'd take forever to give you guys the entire sequence of events as it happened. I probably did something wrong that I thought was minor, but was a lot more detrimental than I realized.

Thank God Mike (@ IPS) got my other parts in:
P73-00 Pistons (complete with wrist pins and rings) - 81mm [hopefully the bores are round and unscathed]
Moojin oili pan

I've already got:
headgasket
ITR exhaust cam
ARP headstuds (still on backorder from Rocket) - might be overkill, so I might just use new OEM units
ARP rod bolts (on order from Rocket)

What I need:
Hondata GS-R Intake Manifold Gasket
Rechipped P72 ECU (w/ 5300rpm VTEC x-over and 8500rpm fuel cut) or V-AFC depending on which one is the better value
8 ITR intake valves
a couple or more GS-R exhaust valves
CTR intake cam
B&M FPR & gauge
16 valve seals
16 bronze valve guides (probably)
seals and bearings for the shortblock
timing belt tensioner
Skunk2 adj camgears (? maybe)
lost motion assemblies (only if I need them)
spare P72 head (I'd like to have it, but hopefully won't need it)

Need a lot of tools and gauges too.

I thought I'd put the valve guides in myself, but maybe I should leave that to a machine shop. The tools sound like they cost a fortune. Same thing with the wrist pins.

 

BTW, thanks everybody for responding.

 

Quick update for the archive searchers:

Reset timing belt to be exactly dead on TDC alignment. Still need to tension the belt properly b/c it still flaps abount 1/8" both ways.

Follow-up compression test yielded 120 I think. Better than the 60, but still not up to the 210 for all the other cylinders.

Leakdown test. I'm not sure how much pressure you're supposed to pressure the cylinder with on a test like this, but we used somehting like 90psi to 100psi.

Pressurizing the cylinder the first time pushed the cylinder to BDC.

Reset the #4 cylinder @ TDC and pressurized the cylinder. No leaking sounds coming out of either end. Loosened up the rocker arms from the valves, just to make sure it wasn't a valvelash that I had set too tight. --valvelash was no more than 2/1000th's to 4/1000th's of a millimeter out of spec on the loose side (never on the tight side).

Compression test with oil in the #4 cylinder: 180.

Engine running again with the same symptoms: rough idle (altho maybe not as rough), lawnmower exhaust, trouble holding up the idle when letting off the gas, etc.

Today: Remove head and maybe even pull the block out so I can get it to a machine shop for new internals.

Also, I'm trying to determine how big of an injector I'll be needing. For 210 crank hp, I'm beginning to think that I'll need 270cc injectors.

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET

BSFC = .45 (I chose the lower parameter....or should I use .50?)
Max Duty Cycle = 80%

Fuel pressure is the only variable I can alter. Even at 70psi (which is really high), I'm still short a few.