I heard it is bad for the syncros if you skip gears, like go from 3rd gear to 5th. Is this true? is it bad to go from 5th to 3rd?

 

ttt, i would like to know this as well. im a beginner stick driver, and this happens to me once in a while..

to answer ur quest about going from 5---> 3, i think its just like downshifting from 4-----> 2.

 

It is true. Honda recommends you not do this.

 

why would it make a difference? I could understand if you were over revving your engine when you downshifted. I dunno, any explanation?

 

I don't know why this would be a problem. The 5th gear synchro does not know if you were in 3rd or 4th. I have rebuilt numerous manual transmissions, and I don't see the relationship. 3rd and 4th gear use the same hub/sleeve, so what is the problem ? I have not seen any literature from Honda on this subject either. Is it in a Service News or a Service Bulletin?

 

Where did you hear this, and did they give a reason why?


[Modified by TurboD16Chiovnidca, 8:47 PM 3/23/2003]

 

I can't see how in any way this would affect anything!!! I have done it for as long as I have been driving stick, and I have never had a problem yet. The only way I can see it being a problem, and this is reaching, is if you redline a low gear, then go right to a high gear because of the huge differences in RPM...Although we all do this on downshifts so I don't see how an upshift is any different.

Show me something from Honda saying its bad, and I'll change my ways...

 

Ive noticed if I redline 2nd and immediently go into 5th, it usually grinds. And 5th never grinds under any other circumstance. So now when I skip gears I usually just double clutch and all is well.


[Modified by Muckman, 9:22 PM 3/23/2003]

 

Well... skipping a gear (ie- going from 3rd to 5th) is called short-shifting. In general it is used in very high powered vehicles that experience severe wheelspin when exiting a corner. Shortshifting isn't that big an issue for the synchros as they serve to match main shaft/counter shaft speed and allow smooth gear changes. They should be able to speed match and allow the shift so long as it's not forced. I suspect that Honda wouldn't suggest this because of the RPM drop in a street (wide ratio) gearbox. This would more than likely result in the engine "lugging" or dropping out of the torque range. This condition can do major damage to the "bottom end" in that each cylinder, when fired, is literally pounding on the connecting rod and it's bearing. The resultant shock load destroys the bearings, amongst other things.
In terms of going from 4th to 2nd... this can result in an over-rev... you already know that's not good. Also, should you be able to select the gear and release the clutch the wheels could lock up... that equals no control. Very bad! Remember, it's very hard for the synchros to match that big a speed diferential. Try to avoid doing that unless you are very good at rebuilding gearboxes and can afford the parts.
Look into the heal-toe method when you down shift as it helps the trans/synchros match speeds and creates a happy gearbox. In general down shifting is much harder on a box than upshifting is, due to the momentum imparted on the mainshaft by the engine and it's attempt to slow the car as a whole.
A quick over view of Heal-Toe goes like this -
First practice with the car standing still! You may find some cars won't allow you to reach the gas pedal from the brake. Aftermarket pedals will solve this as they are closer together (or can be positioned that way) If not, have your mechanic take out the gas pedal assembly and reposition it (bending slightly or modifying the pedal itself) Remember this is done at your own risk. During braking for a corner you need to down shift. With your right "toe" on the brake, depress the clutch with your left foot. Begin your shift out of gear. At the same time roll your right "heal" over the accelerator pedal and blip the throttle. This increases engine RPM and will allow the next lower gear to be selected and once the clutch is released the RPM is still high enough that you're not thrown forward into your seat belts.
Watch the showroom stock racing series (Speed World Challenge, Grand Am Cup) as from time to time they show the drivers feet and you'll get a good visual on this whole thing. You can also take an advanced driving course at a local race track which means track time!!! Be carefull with learning this technique and using it on the street. It isn't unusual to be a bit rough when learning it (you'll jam the brake when you blip or you may release the brake a bit when you blip) Your car has to be setup properly for this and you have to be very comfortable doing this, especially on the street. Bumps can theoretically knock your foot off the brake, since racetracks don't have many bumps... learn on a track first.
Bottom line you shouldn't have to skip gears - up or down.



[Modified by Bam-Bam, 9:33 PM 3/23/2003]

 

Mitchel on Demand had a bulletin on it. I'll post it up when I go back to school.

I don't think it had alot to do with the synchros, I believe there's another reason. Bam Bam is probably right..

 

Do you have access to Hondas service bulletins and service news articles at school? Honda has been getting pretty picky about who has them. Anyway, I couldn't find any service bulletins about it but I did find a service news article from about four years ago. Here it is, straight from Honda:

Don’t Skip Gears When
Shifting

Recently, an Internet newsgroup message reported
that it’s OK to skip gears when shifting a manual
transmission. Here’s our response:
Vehicles with manual transmissions should
be shifted through their gears in sequence.
Repeatedly shifting out of sequence, such
as going 2nd to 5th, especially when speed
shifting or power shifting, can cause
accelerated syncro wear which can lead to
gear grinding. To avoid possible problems,
tell your customers not to skip gears and
not to speed shift or power shift.

 

That's the one I was thinking of. It's pretty old, yah..

Not a service bulletin, but it was under their bulletin section with other service information.

 

Don't laugh - but what is speed shifting and power shifting. Is it just shifting without the clutch or shifting really fast?

 

I don't see a problem with skipping gears, especially 3-5. As long as you aren't jamming the shifter during the change, and you are giving adequate time for RPM's to drop so the syncros aren't doing any real work, how will this cause a problem? I know that Honda dealers will tell you not to do this because they know that too many people will screw it up. I do 3-5 nearly all of the time in my '98 Civic EX and 1-3 and 2-4 aren't too uncommon (though I do this in my '00 Accord a lot more). The Civic has 90k on it with no hint of a problem and the Accord is nearing 40k with no issues either.

 

What Honda recomends and what we do are two different things. I wonder what they have to say about my turbo setup?

 

I skip gears when I take off from a traffic light, redline it through second gear, and then don't accelerate further because I'm over the speed limit. I just throw it into fifth. I can see how this would wear the synchros if I tried shifting fast, because the engine is spinning at 8000rpms in second and around 2000rpms in fifth. That's a lot of catching up to do, and you can fel it if you try to jam it into gear.

I just throw it into neutral and wait for the revs to drop to where they'd be in fifth gear. I think the concern is that people don't do that and force it into fifth right away. I could see how that would be bad. The easiest way to avoid this is simply telling people not to skip gears. It's kind of a backwards way of attempting to solve the problem, but I guess it works.

It's kind of like a mom telling her kid to just stay home so he won't get run over by a car. Half the laws in this country work the same way . It takes care of the problem, but everyone would be much happier if she just told him to look both ways before crossing....

Sorry about the rant....




[Modified by Lsos, 9:42 AM 3/25/2003]

 

Sometimes I go from 2nd to 4th if I get the RPM's up in 2nd and not racing.
There seem to be mixed opinions on this. When daily driving I shift at 2-2,200k. I was thinking about shifting at 2k in first, 3k in 2nd, and going to 4th, then 5th at 2k.

I guess I'll stick to the 1-5 since honda recommends this

 

Wow you shift at 3k and 2k? No wonder my car doesn't like me Daily driving I usually shift at 4500-5k through first and 2nd then about 4k in 3rd and usually leave it in 4th because I do mainly city driving (which is also great for cars) I guess that explains how I manage to get 25-26mpg on a virtually stock Honda.

 

Dont misinterpret what was stated by honda in that article or whatever it was. There is nothing wrong with shifting from 3rd to 5th... Unless you are hammering gears, which is what honda was saying. Jamming gears will shorten synchro life whether its 1-2 or 3-5 or any other combo. The workings of a manual gearboxes be it honda or otherwise are in theory identical. Dont be afraid of skipping a gear, just dont shift from 3-5 or 2-4 or whatever like you're drag racing and all will be fine.

And whoever said short shifting when racing is skipping a gear when exiting a corner in a high powered car, must have never been to a road course an oval a stage rally or any other type of competitive driving event.

 

1-2-3-4-5-(6)

(6)-5-4-3-2-1

there is no need to do anything different. read any racing book.

it doesn't say not to neutral drop automatics in the manual, does that mean it's ok and doesn't do any damage?