I just got done reading that article on the b18c5 and the valvetrain seems like something that would help out quite a bit. I know this is a simple question for many of you. I just wanted to make sure it would all go into the b18c with no probs. And one more question, do you think that would help out quite a bit or not. thanks in advance. -Corey

 

Why not just slap an ITR head onto your b18c block?

Curious

 

well, i got a friend redoing his type r head with S2. he is going to have the parts for sale soon.

 

i shouldn'thave a prob right? i just want to make sure...

 

It will all fit. The retainers are the same. The type-r exhaust springs are the same as the GSR intake springs. Type-R intake valves and springs are an improvement upon GSR. Type-R lost motion assemblies are stiffer than the GSR lma's. You should definately replace your valve guide seals and lap the new valves into your head. Good luck.

 

everything will work, question is...what cams? if you are goin to stick w/ stock, then theirs really no point on wasting your money...but if you are goin to upgrade to ITR/CTR, then go for it

 

with no cams or other upgrades you won't see any real improvement, but you can save it for future

 

do the LMAs without question, you can get by with GSR valves and not get the ITR intake valves, getting the ITR intake springs will help facilitate the additional lift you can make with another cam. buy titanium retainers that have been coated for operation in a daily driver. mine were kinda scratched after 8K and I plan on replacing them before I go to taller cams. you will not see any real diff with the ITR intake valves... trust me. the difference would be made up with the retainers dropping 6 grams under stock, your valve timing will be a bit more improved that way as well. tru if you are refreshing your head, do the stem seals while you are in there. you have no reason to pull your head, springs and retainers can be changed without pulling the head with the right valve spring compressor kit. if you are going to get cams, dont get sucked into buying more than a 250 duration set of cams. If guys can tune the B18s to 200whp on stock ITR cams, you can def. make that with the Skunk2 stage 1. that would be my suggestion. also, dont buy thier cam gears. they strip easy, 6 fasteners are nice but after they strip out on you... what do you have then>? buy toda or jun or spoon gears. the timing is exactly like stock and more rugged and set up to adjust often.

 

i will be getting the itr cams as well.

 

So i should get the valvetrain including the LMA's, replace your valve guide seals and lap the new valves into my head and i will be pretty good?

 

Will I be able to up my rev limit a bit? So that i can rev like a type r or not?

 

You'd need something to override the stock fuel cut programmed into the computer, but yes, you could safely bump up your redline after installing the ITR components.

 

What type of overly broad statement is that? It has been proven the higher lift and duration make more HP. There have been cases of people making over 200whp with the ITR cams, but what you never see is how many hours of tuning it takes to accomplish this.

Actually, the Skunk2 cam gears are one of the few that I would use. I have never seen a case of the bolts stripping. The force is transferred to 6 bolts instead of three of four, hence less load per bolt, and less chance of the bolt stripping.

 

there is good info on here

but how much needed are the ITR LMA's

honestly, I dont even know what they do, but I see them in my helms manual

im doing simillar setup as the dude above

 

where is this article online or a magazine article cuz i plan on doing the same thing tomorrow i might order itr valve train skunk2 is way too much

 

if you never seen a case of them stripping, dont come to my house or you will
have to re-evaluate that statement. the one on my intake side did fine, I lost 3
fasteners due to changing the settings while hot. that may have been my fault, granted. however the notches are hard to read and a +5/-5 range per 1 tooth of adjustment is hard to read and make changes to. my next investment will be in a +10/-10 gear per 1 tooth of adjustment. this makes timing to the crank more easliy read and not misunderstood as well. you can run double valve timing settings if you are a noob like I was and run your valvetrain too hard.

as far as the statement conserning attaining a taller hp value with a higher duration and lift cam, congratuate yourself because you are absolutely correct.
as far as increasing TOTAL VOLUME of hp across the power curve, there needs to be an effective choice of your cam profile for your engine combination. if you want no midrange and a peak at 8K, get skunk2s and tune with a vfac... cool I have 185 at the wheels for 300rpm and 95whp/tq at 5252rpm I would rather have 130whp/tq at 5252 RPM and 175/120 at the wheels at 8K than with a peak number I can brag about to my friends.

dont overcam your engine or you will have:

more lower engine component wear
higher possibility for valve float
more vibration in your engine for little or no gains
more timing belt wear
more valvetrain component wear
harder to tune with cam gears without clay checking the motor
higher margin for error
just as hard to tune, if not harder
taller cams depending on how they treat the valve event
need a certain CR to make all the power, not just peak
and when sized to the motor, actually make MORE power.

like I said, dont get sucked into buying tall *** cams and
being someone's outer tertiary ring of saturn R&D guinea pig
on your bank roll. run those ITR cams and learn, you will
love them... if you want to cut to the chase and get a great
cam that will perform, just get the skunk2 stage 1s. 38 deg
of overlap at 0,0 they have a clean ramp angle and POP at 5700.
they have just a bit more than the CTR/ITR combination and
are about 200 more. you can run them on stock CR, clear up
to 12:1 and make power. I have GSR cams in my P72VVIS/C5block
engine and it pulls HARD to right before the bounce my
engine is flirting with 11:1 and its running super. I hope you get things
worked out. dont skimp on the LMAs, you will thank yourself later when
you miss a shift and your followers can keep up

 

I was told this by many tuners and racers alike in my area. Is it true that the GSR head flows better than a ITR head? Could anybody elaborate on this. I need to be educated Thx gang.

 

As you said before, it was your fault that the studs stripped, but what if the gear only had three or four bolts, the gear will slip for sure! With six studs, there is less of a chance of this happening. As far as know, each tick on the skunk 2 cam gear is 2 degress of crank timing. Why would you want a gear with less resolution, it will be even harder to get the gear adjusted accurately.

I suppose that the ITR cams make more midrange than the Toda B's . Again you are making an overly broad statement. The Bs have more mid range and top end than similarly tuned ITR cams, or skunk2 stage 1 cams

It all depends on what you use your car for. Some people use their cars for drag, and some use their cars for roadracing.Anytime you use race components in your car, you are putting more stress and you will have more wear than the original OEM components, but that is an acceptable risk. As long as you are building a motor, you need to clay it to know your tolerances With the JUN3s for example, there is not much cam gear tuning as the cam already has a lot of overlap built it, so clearance is less of an issue for cam gear tuning. You are making it sound like you can make more power over the entire rev range with ITR cams or a mild cam , you can't.
Well I run 12:1 CR with JUN 3s with all the appropriate valvetrain, 440 RC injectors and Hondata, and the car pulls hard all the way to 9200 (My peak power is at 9000, but my midrange is still better than when I had ITR cams). My car idles like stock, runs like stock, gas mileage is stock (when I can keep my foot out of it) and I have no regrets.

Why don't you post your dyno, and we will let the results speak for themsleves


[Modified by canuck-mx6, 12:51 PM 9/23/2002]

 

again, give yourself another congratuatory pat on the back bro.
you proved all my points to the tee. if you have done this, you
are in the 2-5% of people who do things right considering all
the variables you can learn and make the appropriate changes.
it isnt my fault that you need to be proven to be an expert
unfortnately, some of us arent as technically gifted and must learn.
so, in response to your post I say if you plan on staying realtively
stock or do not plan on totally considering a motor's engine package
from the git-go, bigger cams than 255/250 12mm/11.5mm at the valve
are a waste of time and effort. that is also a LARGE cam considering
the fact that changes to VE is significant.

I am being broad because discussing cam profiles and how they work
is the basis for understanding WHY one would use the TODA profile.
If you chose to do so, I am sure you know why and thats good for you.
Obvously in your engine combination they are working nicely

oh yea, and as for my dyno I will have that Oct 5th. I am not bragging about
peak power only that my setup illustrates the fact that raised compression makes any cam naturally more effective

I am also speaking to the CTR/ITR cam working better with the stock C1 C
and engine combination than the TODA B profile would for total gains. if tuned well, I can see them doing ok, however the STOCK GSR manifolding and everything with just ITR cams and the appropriate valvetrain will work better together than the larger cams without the upgraded internals and tuning to make it work which for most, is an additional cost they dont need to spend. the stock
GSR computer and I,H,E can make 165/125 at the wheels with ITR cams,
with 120 at 5252rpm. this is fairly respectable in my book for the street
w/o even I,H,E. Tuning would reveal more. Here was my car with just
a CTR intake cam all else mainly stock on the C1 bottom end:

http://www.bseries.net/html/dyno/NA.php#99_B18C1_Sarr
$150 itr intake valves (not needed)
$300 CTR intake cam
$800 head R/R and labor (before I knew how to install a head)
$120 itr intake valve springs

158.5/121.4 at 18BTDC, 0,0 and everything stock. my new baseline I will
post as soon as I get it. I will run 18, 0,0 no changes to ECU or fuel pressure
or anything, 3 runs make an overlay and post it. I need to do I,H,E next since
when I run my car hard and raise the hood my header GLOWS. Definately
NON-IDEAL





[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 8:45 PM 9/23/2002]

 

Okay, now you have qualified your statement. Of course there are changes to the volumetric efficiency, with more overlap, and higher lift, there is a lot more air being taken in per intake stroke, and more exhaust gases being expelled. If you choose not to upgrade the supporting pieces, then milder cams would suit you better.
I think that you misunderstood my intent, I am far from being an expert, quite the contrary, I am always asking questions. I realized that I could not just swap cams and expect good gains, so planned my NA buildup over a year, collecting all the pieces that I would need. With the JUN 3's having the following specs: Int-265 dur. / 12.0mm lift, Exh-265 dur. / 11.5mm lift, you need the higher compression etc


I just wanted to show you the graph so that you can see that midrange is better than with the ITR cams.
I mean if you are going to build it, then do it right the first time


[Modified by canuck-mx6, 1:00 PM 9/23/2002]

 

No worries man, I felt I had qualified my statement however
alot of people like to debate, I really only like to discuss things
and offer my R/D from learning things first hand in my car.
I have made errors and have learned things, as we all have.

not everyone here has the R/D, time, money and knowledge to build
thier only car the first time to the hilt. thats what my comment
was predicated upon. you are not an amateur here, you have
done this before. I was only raising conciousness of the tendancy
for the rice crowd of speed shops to say: "oh yea, you got yourself
a GSR, yo? well slap in some toda spec C's yo, or maybe the skunk3
or new toda vtec killer cams, yo" nada power made, only ticking timebombs. speedshops make MAD CASH tuning a backwards *** setup.

CTR/ITR cams are cheap, they work and you can tune the motor to spec and
then OUTGROW them. when you do, then you can see what cam would be
best for how you built your engine up. I say thats an option for those who
want to see the 170/130s+ quick fast and drive for a while and learn how
to tune. Since I have gone that route already, I want something a bit bigger
yet still streetable. I want to keep the GSR tranny and put in a 4.785 so
I would like to see the midrange utilized to the max, that is my goal.
I want an SC shaped NA curve on my engine, lotsa TQ yet still 1.8.

Cams seem like a great way to finish your build, not to start it. From my research and from what I have felt with a more stout bottom end with stock GSR cams... I am sold on the idea of running a stock honda cam until you can take advantage of larger ones. for instance, our friend here with the Toda Bs and the budget to run them.

for example: this is what I plan on doing in the next year, after I hit 10-15K
have:
ITR block 10.6:1
stock GSR head +.3cr
ARP head studs
ITR LMAs
ITR valvesprings, Ti retainers
stock GSR IM w/ ported internals/65mm TB w/ portmatching
fresh tune up parts, maintainence
AMSOIL 10-30

want: target 11.5-11.8:1 static CR, 22-28MPG, midrange power and
strong pull to 9K with the ability to handle it long term.
0,0 cams 16 timing 190whp/140tq SAE corrected tuned with Hondata
would be nice, a conservative build that makes power longterm
which is still economical to drive, fully extracted with these mods
to 205/150 at the wheels with 135 @ 5252rpm.

Skunk2 stage 1, upgraded valvesprings/retainers
head milled .0030", Mugen Head Gasket +.8cr
GSR head flow optimized for .425 at the valve
OBD1 P72ECU, Hondata tuning w/ 270cc prelude injectors
Hytech header and full exhaust (money well spent)
install new radiator, mugen thermostat/fan switch
4.785 FD with Honda LSD installed in GSR tranny with
synchros refreshed
ITR PP, bearing, 6rivet, sprung kevlar disk
13-14lb ITR flywheel

personally, thats all I will ever want for a while in my TEG. when
the rings get tired, go to 82mm and get a bit more agressive.

thats my example, I know I have a few more things to consider like
my oil drive gear and monitoring systems so I can keep track of
everything... but I have the time to learn what I want to do.



[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 10:54 PM 9/23/2002]

 

Thanks guys for making this one of the most informative threads on cams that ive seen.

 

no worries man, just sharing what I've bumped into so far
homeboy has a very tight integra by the way, I have drooled over
it before

 

I vouch for canuck-mx6
He sold me brand new set of 00-01' ITR valve springs (still in packets)
for a very good price!

 

oo, shiet ..wrongg forum to post that!