i have around $2000 to spend on a setup. this doesnt include mounts or axles or that stuff, but it does include the full working engine. i am looking into a poor man's type r setup....

i want to start with this setup-
b16a2 head.
b18c1 block.
2 layer headgasket.
arp gsr headstuds.
b16 transmission.

that should give me a 10:0 compression ratio, or maybe a 10:6 if i get a jdm gsr block.

down the road, i would like to get pistons to raise my compression, and some cams to work along with that. im thinking p73-00 (itr) pistons and itr cams.

i just have a few questions before i do this-

1: what type of power can i yeild with a simple gsr block/ b16 head/ 2 layer gasket? i have heard somewhere around 160 to the wheels, but i'm not sure if its true. i'd be happy with that... its more than a straight gsr swap.

2: can anyone just throw out some general prices for the block/head/tranny? i really dont have any idea what they cost seperate. i was thinking along the lines of 800 block, 600 head, 600 trans. that would be perfect... that would leave a few hundred to clean up any loose ends.

3. any issues with reliability. i was originally thinking of going crvtec, but im scared of blowing it up. i love to redline it often. i dont see the fun in babying in and never hitting vtec. from what i have read, it seems that this will be as reliable as a stock swap. yes/no?

thanks in advance to anyone that can help me out here.

 

You're prices are a little on the low side, and for the tranny I'd say more like a LOT on the low side.

Be prepared to spend $1000+ for a used tranny, specially if it has LSD.

As for the B20/VTEC, its more reliable than you might think when done correctly. It is a little more prone to wear due to the fact that theres no oil jets in the block and the r/s ratio. Keep in mind though that by replacing the rod bolts with ARP pieces on the B20, you'd have no problem revving into vtec with no worry.

It's all about what YOU want. I'd say some friendly advice is be prepared to spend a little mroe than you think.

 

Personally I'd just swap a GSR motor with a thinner headgasket, and the B16 trans if you want to. The GSR head has a smaller chamber so it will result in higher compression, and the GSR has larger cams for more power. I really think that the flow difference between a stock B16 and a stock GSR head is negligable.

PS: Think about what you're saying. 10:0 compression makes no sense. 10:6 compression sort of makes sense, but if you reduce that ratio it becomes 1.67:1 compression. You're thinking of 10.0:1 compression, or 10.6:1 compression. I hate it when people write that, or they do 9:8:1 compression, it just doesn't make sense and it's a huge pet peeve/aggrivation of mine.

 

i dont want to do the full gsr because of price. its like 2800 for the gsr swap, when i could spend a helluva lot less piecing together this.

plus, down the road, with itr pistons and cams, i could be putting down hp somewhat comparable to a real type r.

sorry about the : and . confusion, but at least you know what i meant.

 

Get a b20 foo.

 

b20s are slow. 146 at the crank isn't gonna do it for me.

i could swap on a vtec head, but then again, who wants to pay when it blows up?

 

B20 stock blocks will not yeild that much power. Reason being the B20b has 9.1:1 compression, and the B20Z has 9.6:1. Therefore a B20 VTEC will probably have as much power a a slighly modded LS. Best bet is go LS VTEC. And a poorman's Type R is good for around 178-185 hp at the crank. Not much considering a GSR has 170 stock.

 

if you are going to redo the engine in the long run..there wouldnt be a need for you to get ARP studs..youd be surprised with what oem honda parts can do. gl on the build

 

i rather just get the head studs, they arent too expensive and will just add to the reliability.

if the poor mans has 15 more hp than a gsr, i'll be damn happy, cuz its going to be much cheaper to build

 

If I had $2K to spend on an engine,and wanted the best bang for the buck. I would buy a LS($500) or B20($1000)longblock and swap a vtec head on it. People say theyre unreliable, but if built correctly,which is not difficult,can yield better results than straight up GSR's or even type R's.
Either vtec head will work and IMO will give similar results when modded.Yes a gsr head will give you a bit more compression, but a thinner than stock head gasket or a milled head can do the same,maybe for less $$$$.
Put some decent cams and at least Type R cams or Skunks stage 2 or whatever and you can easily be at or over 200whp.If you do a frankenstein,Id at the very minimum replace the rod bolts as they are the most stressed part of the block.
In the end with about 11:1 compression and some good cams,You could have a 13 sec all motor honda depending on what chassis you have.
Ive had an LS,CTR,JDM ITR,And a two fully built 2.0l engines in my civic and can tell you Frankensteins are a great bang for the buck AND 2 liters IS BETTER than 1.8 liters.
B20 short block-$600
Vtec head-------$600
mics hardware---$250
cams------------$500
valvetrain----$200
These are just rough estimates and you can prolly find better prices.Just trying to let you some options.good luck on the build!!

 

a complete gsr longblock should only be like 600ish. tops. b16 head is like 300. dizzy and ecu are another 300. itr intake mani and tb are 300. b16 tranny is like 600. 150 for a 2 layer head gasket and im gasket(i think....i only use oem head gaskets so im not sure bout that tho.). thats like 2250

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PyroProblem &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I had $2K to spend on an engine,and wanted the best bang for the buck. I would buy a LS($500) or B20($1000)longblock and swap a vtec head on it. People say theyre unreliable, but if built correctly,which is not difficult,can yield better results than straight up GSR's or even type R's.
Either vtec head will work and IMO will give similar results when modded.Yes a gsr head will give you a bit more compression, but a thinner than stock head gasket or a milled head can do the same,maybe for less $$$$.
Put some decent cams and at least Type R cams or Skunks stage 2 or whatever and you can easily be at or over 200whp.If you do a frankenstein,Id at the very minimum replace the rod bolts as they are the most stressed part of the block.
In the end with about 11:1 compression and some good cams,You could have a 13 sec all motor honda depending on what chassis you have.
Ive had an LS,CTR,JDM ITR,And a two fully built 2.0l engines in my civic and can tell you Frankensteins are a great bang for the buck AND 2 liters IS BETTER than 1.8 liters.
B20 short block-$600
Vtec head-------$600
mics hardware---$250
cams------------$500
valvetrain----$200
These are just rough estimates and you can prolly find better prices.Just trying to let you some options.good luck on the build!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>


PyroProblem, your post makes lots of sense, but i've always head the "right way" to build a crvtec or lsvtec included a built bottom end... and thats why people spend like $3500 putting them together. the poor mans type r can put down 191 to the wheels with just itr pistons and itr cams, and still be reliable.

im open to your idea, but what do you mean by "built correctly"

 

I'd say he means by not cutting corners with low quality parts and actually taking the time to plastiguage everything to make damn sure the bearings are correct.

Overall just building the engine "the right way".

 

yeah, i am not that experienced with the inside of an engine. i've swapped before, done every bolt on there is, but never really fucked around with the inside.

thats why i feel more comfortable swapping the heads, and down the road the pistons.

 

bump. looking for more info.

 

I would say go LS/VTEC. If you have a good repair manual (HELMS)and can do a swap, then pulling a motor apart shouldn't be too much harder. You can put os itr or even ctr pistons in an LS block. The CTR pistons would give you I believe an 11:1 compression ratio in an LS block (I may be wrong). A set of ITR cams or some Buddy Club III +'s on that setup would yield some nice numbers.

Go to http://www.importreview.com they have a comparison b/w a B16A head and a GSR head. The GSR head had more torque and a little more whp than the 16 head. This is probably due to the dual runner IM.

I would recommend starting slowly...get a good block and the pistons you want. Then get a head and all of the necessites/extras you want. Then get your tranny. A good hydro tranny starts around $500 (seen B16 trannies go for that) all the way up to around $1500 for an ITR tranny with the 4.78 fd (J4D is the code on it).

Take your time and don't rush or cut corners. Save up for the best stuff instead of getting something that is in questionable condition. A GSR long block will run you around $2k. http://www.passwordjdm.com sells the JDM GSR long block for $2059 (I believe) plus shipping. That motor has 180hp instead of the USDM motors 170hp. I believe it's compression is 10.8:1. I have seen JDM GSR motors laying down 178whp with a good i/e combo. I believe the dyno sheets were on here too. Tranny wise...get the ITR tranny. The gearing and lsd are worth the extra money. Plus it uses dual or triple (can't remember right now) synchro's instead of the other trannies single synchro setup.

Good luck with your buildup

 

thanks for the info.

again, i like ls/vtec, but i want and need reliability... something i dont think lsvtec can offer me.

i have around 3000 to spend. its a daily driver setup and i want to be able to beat it up without having to worry about destroying it.

im reconsidering some things... thinking now, since b16s are more common, and most likely cheaper, maybe i should get a b16 bottom end and some itr pistons.. im not sure what power that'll give me though.

 

no your compression will be less then an LS. look at the gs-r pistons and see how flat they are?...dont forget...the b16 head is of lower spec of compression then the gs-r head do to the D-Shaped combustion chamber. you will have to get new pistons, re-hone and done forget all the seals you will need. just save more money then do it


...my .02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slow_Em1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no your compression will be less then an LS. look at the gs-r pistons and see how flat they are?...dont forget...the b16 head is of lower spec of compression then the gs-r head do to the D-Shaped combustion chamber. you will have to get new pistons, re-hone and done forget all the seals you will need. just save more money then do it...my .02 </TD></TR></TABLE>

wait. im confused, im not sure what you are replying to.

bah. all this ******* confusion. i have 3000 to spend, im hoping for 190 to the wheels.

i guess i'll find a gsr swap and drop in itr pistons and cams. will that even get me close?

i was hoping by doing the gsr block and b16 head, i could save some cash.


Modified by jbell at 1:53 AM 9/20/2004

 

whoops. double post.

 

just tossing around numbers, i found a dyno, and priced some stuff out.

for a lsvtec setup-
b18b longblock 749
b16 vtec head 700
b16 tranny 700
itr pistons 175
itr header 400

thats nearly $2750 and will make around 175hp. what does it need to be reliable. im just looking for the best thing to do to get ~180hp and be reliable for $3000.

 

if u go under the classifieds section or do a search for shortblock, b16 head, tranny, ect ect ect...u'll start to see what "prices" go for on these parts...that answers one of your questions....u can get some great deals off HT...

If time is not a factor, than like some other ppl have said take the time and do things slowly...id go w/ the b18c/b16 myself...u can also find built blocks on here for around $1000+ or so for boost or na...

 

yeah, i have no need for a built block. im gonna try to a find:

complete gsr bottom end, (looked for prices, no luck),
a complete b16 head, (figure around $600),
a b16 trans (figure around $600)
jdm itr pistons ($175 from hmotors)
jdm itr cams ($500 ebay)

that should be good for around 180 to the wheels, give or take?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jbell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah, i have no need for a built block. im gonna try to a find:

complete gsr bottom end, (looked for prices, no luck),
a complete b16 head, (figure around $600),
a b16 trans (figure around $600)
jdm itr pistons ($175 from hmotors)
jdm itr cams ($500 ebay)

that should be good for around 180 to the wheels, give or take?</TD></TR></TABLE>
buying a b18c1 block and a b16 head makes no sense to me. Your compression will be lower because of the b16's larger CC. If you are set on the gsr bottom then do a full long block. To make the power you want can be done many ways even with your budget. My suggestion is a b20/vtec. b20z block, gsr head, b16 tranny. Go with a high compression head gasket as well. All that together will cost you around $2300 once you get all the parts to make the kit (oil pump, fittings, other crap). You should do some more research though and not listen to all this crap about b20/vtec swaps not being reliable. There are MANY people out there with over 10K miles on there engines after the switch.

 

make sure whatever you get comes complete. trust me pieceing together a whole engine really blows and can be costly