Ok people time for some rework on the head. The big question I have is how for should I go.

This is a B16A2 head running Toda Spec B cams. This head will go back on the stock B16A2 bottom end and then make it's way to a stock B18C5 short block.

This is what I have come up with at this point in time;

Toda Springs (swapping out the ITR/portflow combo)
New port flow retainers (I want new retainers with the new springs)
ITR LMS (don’t tell me not to get them because they have been ordered)

Now this is were I hit a dead end. I want new valves but what kind??? ITR, Ferrea, or Supertech??

If I go with the ITR valves should I get both intake and exhaust for just the intake valves? Also will I need new valve guides if I stick with ITR valves? My head has 62k on it and I’m thinking if I’m doing all this work I might as well get new valve guides. If I’m getting new guides I might as well get SS valves and bronze guides. Hmmmm what to do.

What about the port and polish work??

I don’t want to do any head work that could possibly lower compression and at the same time I don’t want to be milling the head to rise compression. I’m thinking some clean up work on the intake and exhaust ports, 3 or 5 angle valve job and that might be it. So should I go all out and have PortFlow turn my head into a work of art……..and wait for 2+ months to get my head back. Or have King do the work??

I’m looking for any comments about this setup. Also anyone that has dealt with Portflow please post up. I need to get this ball rolling soon so I have my head back ASAP!

Thanks for help people.

Scott



[Modified by MadtownSi, 9:36 PM 9/3/2002]

 

anyone???

 

bad head work won't really lower compression, it will change the velocity of the incoming charge (air/fuel mixture). You don not want over sized valves on a b spec cam, stock is fine and you will keep the velocity higher. Go to "ericks" web site, there is a link to a really well known head prep company alaniztechnologies.com I have also used auto race industries out of florida. they did a fully built b16a with ferrea valves, bronze guides, three angle, ported and polished, flow tested, etc... This work is not cheap, look for prices in the $2000-$2500 range, more if you want to use ferrea's roller rockers. get the picture.
Peace
Schu


[Modified by MSchu, 12:09 AM 9/5/2002]


[Modified by MSchu, 12:13 AM 9/5/2002]

 

Good question. :thumup: I am looking to possibly get some head work done too.

 

what he said Joe alaniz @ http://www.alaniztechnologies.com is by far one of the best. He may be a rookie for most people in the import industry but he has been around working in the all motor performance world. I would recomend him to anyone I know just because he could back up his work and would actually work closely with you for the ideal set-up you want. He gives you documentation of the finish product and whats cool about this is he gives you flow numbers of ( before and after results) of your head using a ( Superflow Flowbench) which not alot of head porters have. He always strives to learn more through research and development and with countless hours of R&D he knows what works and what doesn't work and can back it up....

just my .02 cents

P.S. He worked on Eriks Cylinder head from eriksracing which is now the fastest allmotor civic to date

goodluck

 

i'd personally go all ITR if budget was an issue, BUT otherwise, i'd go with the nitride coated zspeed (skunkworks) or crowers,

 

Last night I checked out Joe’s web site and let me tell you this…………I liked what I was reading. Joe is not afraid to try new things and do some R&D work. I might be giving him a call when I get home from work tonight.

 

Here's some shots of my type r head Dpr did.
Befoe everyone ask's, it cost alot.

 

I thought Dan P. was out of business?

 

Has anyone ever dynoed a built head vs stock? I'd be very interested to see how much power $2K of head work buys.

 

Me too.

 

I too would love to see some dyno numbers on a stock head vs ported head.

I had a good look at the Alaniz website, and I have to say I really appreciate the fact that he's posted flow bench results. This takes some of the mystery out of the whole port & polish thing for me. In the "Monthly Tech Articles" section of his website you'll notice a comparison of ported B16 and GSR heads. Interesting that the B16 flows better when ported, which may explain why Honda uses it on the ITR. Also interesting that once ported it flows better than a stock H22 head but still nowhere near as well as a stock S2000 head. Honda apparently made some pretty impressive improves in head design when the built the S2K.

What I want to know is, what kind of power gains can be expected from a good port & polish? Raising cfm's from 150ish to 167ish on a B16 head is great, but what does this translate to in horsepower and torque? Is it worth spending over $1k on a high quality port & polish? I've often heard so-called Honda experts state that "all the power is in the head", suggesting that big gains can be made with a port & polish. But where are the dyno numbers to back this up?

But hey, I do want to give major props to Alaniz for at least posting some tangible data and attempting to educate his potential customers about the process of porting and polishing a Honda head. I'll certainly considering using him for my next head job.


[Modified by Maxi, 9:02 PM 9/6/2002]

 

somebody out there must have some insights into this! Please share

 

Under Flow Charts check out the RSX-S vs S2000 heads....it shows a b16 for comparison.

I would say honda technology is definitly getting better! Look at the flow of the K20a2 head compared to the b16 head!

 

Any engine is nothing more then a big air pump, .. the more air ( and fuel ) you can get into the cylinders the more power it will make, ..
head work should always be one of the first performence mods, .. I'm not saying that cause I'm a head porter, .. but cause it's true.
The performence gains you see will depend on the mods that go with the port work, .. more air means you'll need more fuel and to remap
the fuel curves etc. But, .. with just the head port I've seen gains on mild street engines of 20 hp or more.

I'm inlovolved in some serious Honda projects with an engine builder on the East coast, .. I'm sure you'll hear about at the start of
next years racing season, .. .. I do mostly development projects and don't do any "production" work with CNC machaines.
I used to own a head shop that did Indy car work and big in the NHRA and IHRA prostock wars, .. now I just do custome delelopment.

I'd be glad to give you a great deal on your head porting and flow testing on my Superflow computerized bench if you will publicize
the results, .. good or bad, ..

E-mail me if you want to discuss it.

Curtis Boggs
Racing Flow development
Curtis@cboggs.com

 

Curtis, thanks for the feedback. Being from Toronto, I'm not familiar with your shop but it sounds like you've worked on some pretty high level race cars. Could you tell us a bit more about your shop, what kind of horsepower and torque gains you've seen with Honda heads (I'm interested primarily in B-series), and if your flowbench numbers are comparable with those posted on the Alaniz website? Have you ever flowbenched any of your competitors heads to see what kind of results they're getting and how?

Any further feedback you can provide is greatly appreciated!

Dave

 

Definatley check out DPR. He does awesome work. I believe Joe from alaniz, used to work for Dan.

http://www.dpr-racing.com

 

like i've told you time and time again t-bone, the whole car is well-put together! good luck in the future man!

--justin

 

Dave,

I'd be glad to tell you more about my work. First some back ground, ..
I started porting in the early 80s when my uncles where drag racing. Being part of the ProStock drag race crowd my uncles exposed me to some high level work.
I continued in proStock running the cylinder head development for one of the top IHRA engine builders and was involved in the first door slammer over 200mph.
I went on to open my own shop for a few years but I grew tired of the high levels of production work, .. and slow down of the development work so I closed the
shop down so I could concentrate on development work.
I now have a small shop in Northern Virginia and work closely with a prominent Maryland engine builder doing development.

We've seen all kinds of power gains on the dyno but it depends on much more then just the heads, .. it's the combination.
Same thing with the heads. A ported head is part of a total combination or package and needs to be matched to the intended use.
Do my flow numbers match others? Well I have drag race heads that out flow any published numbers you've seen but it may not be right for everyone.
That's why when I port a head I need all the information about the intended use, .. cams, .. car weight, etc.

A few things to remember about flow numbers. THE most important thing is it's tough to compare flow numbers from one shop to another.
A flow bench is a development device, .. you do your initial flow testing on it, .. and do all your comparison numbers on it.
One shop may use a different air straightening device on the intake that would effect numbers, .. they may use different calibration methods, ..
the point is in real life, .. although most shops won't tell you thins, .. you shouldn't compare flow numbers from different flow benches.
A better way to do it would be to compare percentage of gain numbers, . but even this may be sketchy.

While on this subject, .. Dynos are the same way. The dyno at my engine builders shop doesn't give the same numbers as the engine shop down the street.
Different machine, .. People have forgotten over the years that these are development machines used to do an initial test, .. then test again to see if there was
a gain, .. .. no different then using the drag strip, .. just more controlled.

I bet I'll **** off a few shop owners with THAT little tid bit of truth, ..;-)

As a cylinder head porter and a development shop I make it my point to know what everyone else is doing, .. in the import head area things are a little behind compared
to other motorsports. I've tested other works, .. .. some are good solid designs, .. some are questionable. Alaniz seems like he does good work for his intended market.
But it comes down to this, .. if a porting shop has the engineering experience to design new porting, ( that's what a porting shop should do ) and not just grind ports bigger, ..
it's about how much money the customer wants to spend on it because it's time consuming.
If you gave me an unlimited budget and an open rules package so I could weld and move ports, .. and spend several weeks on it, .. I'll build a head that will out flow
anything, ..

Curtis

 

you have mail curtis boggs

 

Curtis, thanks for the detailed response. I've certainly had experience with different dynos putting up different numbers on the same car, so it doesn't surprise me too much to hear you say the same about flow benches. Makes sense for a lot of reasons, but thanks for pointing this out since I hadn't thought about it in relation to flow benches.

I've got some more questions for you, so I'm going to drop you an e-mail since discussing things like pricing isn't normally something shops like to do online

Cheers,
Dave

 

Wow, headwork. That's a hard one.

Good old stand-bys:
DPR
Portflow

Cutting edge:
http://www.alaniztechnologies.com

Good luck, let me know what you choose.

BTW, I have an extra B16 head sitting here and have thought of sending it out somewhere to get ported and polished so I can compare it to my Leitner & Bush http://www.leitnerbush.com/index.htm head that was deshouded to give me 12.0:1 compression with the Toda Pistons. Stock head would give 12.6:1 with the Pistons (81.25mm).

Oh what to do. Would love to get the head built and have sgT tune it with a Hondata and see if I can get more than 210 whp. All it takes is $....which I don't have right now.


[Modified by TodaSi, 1:45 PM 9/9/2002]


[Modified by TodaSi, 1:52 PM 9/9/2002]

 

TodaSi, my last head (B18C1) was ported and polished by Leitner and Bush as well. I have no idea how good/bad a job they did though, since I never had a baseline to compare their work against and they didn't give me any before/after flowbench results. I'd like to think Toronto has a good porter in town, but I have no real evidence to support this one way or the other.

Since I blew up my GSR head (see http://www.hadamotorsport.com/tech/h...ine/index.html for details), I'm thinking B16a head with a high quality p&p to go along with my Toda cams and valvetrain, bolted to a stock ITR shortblock for reliability and ECHC eligibility (I keep spinning bearings at the track, which I hope to have cured with a baffled oil pan and an Accusump). I used to think GSR heads were superior to B16/ITR heads, but after seeing Alaniz' stock head flow numbers I guess I stand corrected.
Any hey, B16 heads are way more common to it shouldn't break the bank finding a bare one in good shape.

I'll let you know what I end up doing and what sort of numbers I get.

Cheers,
Dave

 

Chad,

Being one who likes a challenge and the opportunity for some development work to end up dynoed on a customer's car, ..
we should talk about porting & flowing a B16 head for you, .. ;-)

Curtis
Racing Flow Development

 

Curtis, you've got e-mail