bored b16 or b18
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Joined: Nov 2002
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From: tallafizzy, FL state
Re: bored b16 or b18 (hybrid2nr)
hybrid2nr, dude i give up on you; after you being wrong; you come back with this lame........just give up.
by the way i looked for 2 dynos that where equally comparable, those are good examples, both with the same mods and making stock power levels; im not cheating, your cheating yourself.
just drop it.
anyways back in track;
as everybody is saying get the b18c, it will make your life easier
by the way i looked for 2 dynos that where equally comparable, those are good examples, both with the same mods and making stock power levels; im not cheating, your cheating yourself.
just drop it.
anyways back in track;
as everybody is saying get the b18c, it will make your life easier
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 77
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From: San Diego, CA, USA
Re: bored b16 or b18 (mmuller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mmuller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hybrid2nr, dude i give up on you; after you being wrong; you come back with this lame........just give up.
by the way i looked for 2 dynos that where equally comparable, those are good examples, both with the same mods and making stock power levels; im not cheating, your cheating yourself.
just drop it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
*sigh*, another copout.
Are you actually trying to say those dyno runs are from 2 motors that are identical except for displacement only? Please say no.
mmuller, you are a veritable cornucopia of Honda knowledge and I truly admire you for that. Contrary to what you may think, I really am not interested in sparring with you, but I am calling you on some of your tech claims. If you can't back it up, at least stop copping out. All I ask is you back it up with valid facts and tech to substantiate it, not hide behind some questionable magazine article or web posting, okay? Pleeeease?
I sincerely apologize if you're offended. I think you're being overly defensive about it and I'm trying to extend an olive branch. If you want to continue being a tool about the whole thing, that's your business. Grow up and learn to deal with it.
Peace out.
Modified by hybrid2nr at 3:43 PM 11/17/2004
by the way i looked for 2 dynos that where equally comparable, those are good examples, both with the same mods and making stock power levels; im not cheating, your cheating yourself.
just drop it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
*sigh*, another copout.
Are you actually trying to say those dyno runs are from 2 motors that are identical except for displacement only? Please say no.
mmuller, you are a veritable cornucopia of Honda knowledge and I truly admire you for that. Contrary to what you may think, I really am not interested in sparring with you, but I am calling you on some of your tech claims. If you can't back it up, at least stop copping out. All I ask is you back it up with valid facts and tech to substantiate it, not hide behind some questionable magazine article or web posting, okay? Pleeeease?
I sincerely apologize if you're offended. I think you're being overly defensive about it and I'm trying to extend an olive branch. If you want to continue being a tool about the whole thing, that's your business. Grow up and learn to deal with it.
Peace out.
Modified by hybrid2nr at 3:43 PM 11/17/2004
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: EM1ville
Re: bored b16 or b18 (hybrid2nr)
If I get motor here it will be an B18c and they are going for anywhere from 500 to 1000 bucks, the reason being is that in Japan,chicks drive hondas, so they are pretty easy to get ahold of. 
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From: tallafizzy, FL state
Re: bored b16 or b18 (elitesi8)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elitesi8 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I get motor here it will be an B18c and they are going for anywhere from 500 to 1000 bucks, the reason being is that in Japan,chicks drive hondas, so they are pretty easy to get ahold of. </TD></TR></TABLE>
dude, if its like that go ahead and get like 3, come back to the states and sell them for mucho dinero
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2nr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
*sigh*, another copout.
Are you actually trying to say those dyno runs are from 2 motors that are identical except for displacement only? Please say no.
mmuller, you are a veritable cornucopia of Honda knowledge and I truly admire you for that. Contrary to what you may think, I really am not interested in sparring with you, but I am calling you on some of your tech claims. If you can't back it up, at least stop copping out. All I ask is you back it up with valid facts and tech to substantiate it, not hide behind some questionable magazine article or web posting, okay? Pleeeease?
I sincerely apologize if you're offended. I think you're being overly defensive about it and I'm trying to extend an olive branch. If you want to continue being a tool about the whole thing, that's your business. Grow up and learn to deal with it.
Peace out.
Modified by hybrid2nr at 3:43 PM 11/17/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
soo... what do you need me to clarify?what part of my ''tech'' was wrong? please elaborate.
The engines are pretty much how the pattern goes between the 2...they are once again at pretty STOCK power levels. im not here to baby you, do your own research, look at more dynos and you'll see. if you really want me to i can post some more dyno's
</TD></TR></TABLE>dude, if its like that go ahead and get like 3, come back to the states and sell them for mucho dinero
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2nr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
*sigh*, another copout.
Are you actually trying to say those dyno runs are from 2 motors that are identical except for displacement only? Please say no.
mmuller, you are a veritable cornucopia of Honda knowledge and I truly admire you for that. Contrary to what you may think, I really am not interested in sparring with you, but I am calling you on some of your tech claims. If you can't back it up, at least stop copping out. All I ask is you back it up with valid facts and tech to substantiate it, not hide behind some questionable magazine article or web posting, okay? Pleeeease?
I sincerely apologize if you're offended. I think you're being overly defensive about it and I'm trying to extend an olive branch. If you want to continue being a tool about the whole thing, that's your business. Grow up and learn to deal with it.
Peace out.
Modified by hybrid2nr at 3:43 PM 11/17/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
soo... what do you need me to clarify?what part of my ''tech'' was wrong? please elaborate.
The engines are pretty much how the pattern goes between the 2...they are once again at pretty STOCK power levels. im not here to baby you, do your own research, look at more dynos and you'll see. if you really want me to i can post some more dyno's
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Re: bored b16 or b18 (mmuller)
Long story short, I blew a 350 in an early Firebird and replaced the short block with a 455 with the identical cam. top end, CR, etc. It sure felt like it had a lot more power because of the increased torque, so we were sure it'd knock plenty off the ET. It eventually did once we got it to bite, but the trap speed didn't change at all - therefore hp didn't either. Btw, this experience was repeated with friends that did 327 to 400 sbc, 350 - 455 Olds, 472 - 500 Caddy, etc.
This article explains why.
http://wallaceracing.com/enginetheory.htm
The only way to significantly increase power when increasing displacement is to also increase the ability for those extra cubes/ccs to breathe more (ports, valve size and/or valve timing, I/E, etc.). This applies to any 4 cycle motor, no matter the make, size, or ratings.
Simply throwing a larger displacement short block under an existing top end will increase torque and do it at a lower rpm - which does feel more powerful - but it does not increase power (hp).
Modified by hybrid2nr at 5:36 PM 11/22/2004
This article explains why.
http://wallaceracing.com/enginetheory.htm
The only way to significantly increase power when increasing displacement is to also increase the ability for those extra cubes/ccs to breathe more (ports, valve size and/or valve timing, I/E, etc.). This applies to any 4 cycle motor, no matter the make, size, or ratings.
Simply throwing a larger displacement short block under an existing top end will increase torque and do it at a lower rpm - which does feel more powerful - but it does not increase power (hp).
Modified by hybrid2nr at 5:36 PM 11/22/2004
Mad Scientist
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,827
Likes: 1
From: tallafizzy, FL state
Re: bored b16 or b18 (hybrid2nr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2nr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Long story short, I blew a 350 in an early Firebird and replaced the short block with a 455 with the identical cam. top end, CR, etc. It sure felt like it had a lot more power because of the increased torque, so we were sure it'd knock plenty off the ET. It eventually did once we got it to bite, but the trap speed didn't change at all - therefore hp didn't either. Btw, this experience was repeated with friends that did 327 to 400 sbc, 350 - 455 Olds, 472 - 500 Caddy, etc.
This article explains why.
http://wallaceracing.com/enginetheory.htm
The only way to significantly increase power when increasing displacement is to also increase the ability for those extra cubes/ccs to breathe more (ports, valve size and/or valve timing, I/E, etc.). This applies to any 4 cycle motor, no matter the make, size, or ratings.
Modified by hybrid2nr at 5:36 PM 11/22/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
pretty cool link, now there is a problem though..obviously you more knowledgeable on pushrod v8 motors.
most hondas, or at least the engine families that we are talking about, are very efficient when it comes to head flow/cams valve size, port size, etc.; so increasing displacement will yield a power increase...period; since the top end can cope with the higher air demands of the bigger bottom end.
i understand what you mean by a lower displacement engine could make the same power than a bigger one at a higher rpm; but that dont mean anything since thats peak power, the bigger engine will put more power down all across the board but maybe on the high high rpms as i sayd before.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2nr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Simply throwing a larger displacement short block under an existing top end will increase torque and do it at a lower rpm - which does feel more powerful - but it does not increase power (hp).
Modified by hybrid2nr at 5:36 PM 11/22/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
lower rpms, how low? look at the dynos above.
an increase in torque at a pre-specified rpms = more power.
this is another example, but this time being a 2.0 liter:
this is a motor that could be improved a lot on, since top end falls dramatically, but it still makes more power.
also compression on the dynos that posted are different on all 3; 10.2 for the b16, 10.0 for the gsr and about 9.1 for the b20 vtec.
so as you can see 386 cc.'s difference on a b-series will make a ton of difference.
of course all of those motors are not exactly equal top end wise, but damn close and very good for examples.
.
Modified by mmuller at 1:55 AM 11/23/2004
This article explains why.
http://wallaceracing.com/enginetheory.htm
The only way to significantly increase power when increasing displacement is to also increase the ability for those extra cubes/ccs to breathe more (ports, valve size and/or valve timing, I/E, etc.). This applies to any 4 cycle motor, no matter the make, size, or ratings.
Modified by hybrid2nr at 5:36 PM 11/22/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
pretty cool link, now there is a problem though..obviously you more knowledgeable on pushrod v8 motors.
most hondas, or at least the engine families that we are talking about, are very efficient when it comes to head flow/cams valve size, port size, etc.; so increasing displacement will yield a power increase...period; since the top end can cope with the higher air demands of the bigger bottom end.
i understand what you mean by a lower displacement engine could make the same power than a bigger one at a higher rpm; but that dont mean anything since thats peak power, the bigger engine will put more power down all across the board but maybe on the high high rpms as i sayd before.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2nr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Simply throwing a larger displacement short block under an existing top end will increase torque and do it at a lower rpm - which does feel more powerful - but it does not increase power (hp).
Modified by hybrid2nr at 5:36 PM 11/22/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
lower rpms, how low? look at the dynos above.
an increase in torque at a pre-specified rpms = more power.
this is another example, but this time being a 2.0 liter:
this is a motor that could be improved a lot on, since top end falls dramatically, but it still makes more power.
also compression on the dynos that posted are different on all 3; 10.2 for the b16, 10.0 for the gsr and about 9.1 for the b20 vtec.
so as you can see 386 cc.'s difference on a b-series will make a ton of difference.
of course all of those motors are not exactly equal top end wise, but damn close and very good for examples.
.
Modified by mmuller at 1:55 AM 11/23/2004
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 77
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From: San Diego, CA, USA
Re: bored b16 or b18 (mmuller)
I agree smaller motors are often more "efficient" in terms of hp/ci because many are designed to operate at higher speeds, which necessitates a better top end to be able to pass more air at higher speeds (VE shifted up the rpm scale).
Piston speeds, inertial loads, flame speeds, etc. have always favored smaller motors, but the principles in the article applies to all motors: pushrod or OHC, 2 valve or 4 valve, flathead, wedge or hemi or pentroof, 600 rpm diesel or 18,000 rpm F1, na or power adder,...
I don't mean to be nit picky - and I may be misinterpreting what you're saying - but it seems that perhaps power is being confused with torque. Power is hp, not t. Just wanted to clear this up because I think it's important we be on the same page in order to debate this intelligently.
Regarding the dyno printouts, it's important that we compare 2 (as close to as possible) identical motors except for displacement. This includes the same heads (which would take care of valve and port sizes) and cams. If they had the same I/E, we would see that the b16 has less t and both t and hp peaks at higher rpms than the same combo in a b18, but that the hp value would be the same. Technically. if the b16 has a shorter stroke than the b18 and has at least roughly the same rod length, the b16 would actually have a very slight hp advantage due to a more favorable R/S.
When I have a spare moment, I'll check out the importbuilders and importreview sites. We need to come up with an apple to apple comparison, several preferably.
Piston speeds, inertial loads, flame speeds, etc. have always favored smaller motors, but the principles in the article applies to all motors: pushrod or OHC, 2 valve or 4 valve, flathead, wedge or hemi or pentroof, 600 rpm diesel or 18,000 rpm F1, na or power adder,...
I don't mean to be nit picky - and I may be misinterpreting what you're saying - but it seems that perhaps power is being confused with torque. Power is hp, not t. Just wanted to clear this up because I think it's important we be on the same page in order to debate this intelligently.
Regarding the dyno printouts, it's important that we compare 2 (as close to as possible) identical motors except for displacement. This includes the same heads (which would take care of valve and port sizes) and cams. If they had the same I/E, we would see that the b16 has less t and both t and hp peaks at higher rpms than the same combo in a b18, but that the hp value would be the same. Technically. if the b16 has a shorter stroke than the b18 and has at least roughly the same rod length, the b16 would actually have a very slight hp advantage due to a more favorable R/S.
When I have a spare moment, I'll check out the importbuilders and importreview sites. We need to come up with an apple to apple comparison, several preferably.
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